Modello Negra - Vienna Lager recipe - New AG brewer

[Barley Water]

I had pretty good luck last year making a Vienna Lager with almost 100% Vienna malt (If I remember correctly, I think I used a little Carafa II for color adjustment). Of course, I double decocted the beer to try and jack up the maltiness. I think that I will try it again once the German pils I made this last weekend ferments out. I am also interested in making a Mexican lager, if I do it though, I will use corn grits and do a cereal mash. It's pretty easy however those damn grits bubble up and it seems like I always get hit in the arm with some hot grits, and that hurts.

[WHL]

Hi,

Just another thought about this recipe... IF I decided to attmpt the double decoction would that be a a thin one - which I understand to be liquid only or should I include some of the grist?

I think that I would drop 6l of the approx 10l of liquid out after the initial protein rest heat this up to give me the correct saccharification Rest Temp of 67C for the stated 60mins.. which I would imagine would be 7-9C higher - so about 74-76C?

Could I boil this liquid and then let it cool a little before adding it back to the MT stir check temp and adjust ?
I understand that boiling during the decoction improves mouth feel without effecting how the beer attenuates - or have I misunderstood?



Cheers


Guy

A boiled decoction should consist of the thick mash. This grist can be heated above 75C, while the enzymes in the thin portion need to be preserved in order to convert the sugars released by the decoction.

On the other hand, a mashout decoction can be thin, the extra boil phase serving to produce a clearer runoff.

Besides releasing more sugars the decoction process is supposed to produce Maillard flavoring effects.

Again, the benefits of these efforts are hotly debated.

Mouthfeel is a whole nother can of worms. But Cara-Pils seems to be a good place to start.


Cheers. Bill

[Manx Guy]

Thansk guys,

Some interesting points there...

I'm going to think tis one over some more and decide which way to go a little nearer the time...


Cheers!

Guy

[bosium]

OK, lots of people have come in with some pretty good advice. Here's my R0.02, for what it's worth:

Negro Modelo is a Vienna Lager. It's a style which is most prevalent in Mexico now after dying out in Europe. It came about as a Mexican style due to German (Austrian?) immigrants, who added corn to the beer as it was plentiful and cheap in Mexico. While Negro Modelo is nice, Dos Equis (also common) is thin and watery. Personally, I'd leave out the corn altogether as it will only water down the body and taste of your beer, and contribute very little if anything.

Next, mash. Really, with today's malts you only need an infusion mash and you really shouldn't bother with a protein rest as it will destroy the head and body of your beer. Stick to a single infusion mash, 150F-154F depending on how dry you want it and leave it at that. If you really want to do a decoction, do a mash-out decoction, but I wouldn't bother.

Malts - well they say you can use almost any ratio of Pils / Munich / Vienna to get to around the right colour. If you want it darker without adding tons of Munich, add a % or two of Carafa Special, as this will give it the colour and aroma without the roasty, astringent flavour of chocolate / black malt. You can make a delicious Vienna lager with nothing but Vienna malt, maybe a touch of caramunich for sweetness if you like. Add some wheat or flaked barley if you want a good head on it, again optional.

Hops, you want noble hops only really. Traditionally only one addition right at the beginning for bitterness only, as this is a malt-forward beer. If you're like me and like a bit of hop flavour and the style guidelines be damned, then add a little pinch later on for a touch of flavour and aroma.

You can use most water, as long as you add the necessary salts to achieve the right mash pH. Use a lager yeast, pitch a sh*tload of yeast and ferment cool, then lager it until bright, prob at least a month or so.

That's about all I can think of, ymmv.
Good luck, and keep us posted!

[Barley Water]

Well, I brewed this stuff and it has finally made it to my kegorator. I am very happy with the way this came out. Since there is so much corn in it, the beer is light but has the Vienna flavor. This is the hottest time of the year in Texas (over 100F every day) and a light beer with flavor goes really well right now. Also, I would call this the ultimate "chick beer". It is light and refreshing with enough flavor to keep it interesting. The beer is malty but not sweet which really helps with the "drinkability". I put this stuff in a small contest and it will be interesting to see how well I do but I won't get results for another week. Of course, once the weather cools down a bit, I will want something more substantial. To that end, I brewed a normal, all malt, Octoberfest with just a tad of Special Roast for just a bit of toast flavor. I will for sure do this again, pretty much without modification.

[lancsSteve]

I note from a lot of American forums and books (The Complete Joy of Homebrewing for example) that almost all methods include at least a protein rest if not a 3 step mash...
Do they just like making work for themselves or is the malt available not (always) fully modified ?

Yes they do - take a look at the kind of 20 ingredient and 6 hop addition recipes and multi-rest mashing and the oxygen bubbler systems and it's obvious those across the pond just love making it all pointlessly complicated...

Keep it simple, keep it British.

I've done a few multiple infusions which are fine but 2 is your limit for capacity usually and need to start thick (I forgot last time and ended up decocting).

Happy brewing"!

[Manx Guy]

Well, I brewed this stuff and it has finally made it to my kegorator. I am very happy with the way this came out. Since there is so much corn in it, the beer is light but has the Vienna flavor. This is the hottest time of the year in Texas (over 100F every day) and a light beer with flavor goes really well right now. Also, I would call this the ultimate "chick beer". It is light and refreshing with enough flavor to keep it interesting. The beer is malty but not sweet which really helps with the "drinkability". I put this stuff in a small contest and it will be interesting to see how well I do but I won't get results for another week. Of course, once the weather cools down a bit, I will want something more substantial. To that end, I brewed a normal, all malt, Octoberfest with just a tad of Special Roast for just a bit of toast flavor. I will for sure do this again, pretty much without modification.

Hi BW

Just revisiting this thread - so did you brew a Modello Negra clone? If so what recipe did you use?

Cheers!

Guy

[Barley Water]

No, it was what I would call a "Mexicanized" vienna lager. What I did was use 20% corn grits and did a ceral mash (which is much like doing a decoction). Otherwise, the beer was vienna malt with a little carafa II for color. As noted, the beer came out pretty light which was the objective because I wanted something quaffable for very hot weather. I also do a CAP once or twice a year using basicly the same technique except I of course hop it a lot more and also let the OG get to around 1.055 (with 20% grits though, the beer will be medium body at best anyway). Adding alot of corn to beer does tend to dumb down the malt taste and make the beer pretty light so before you do it make sure that is what you want. Also, if you taste a Negra Modello, the beer is pretty dark but it really doesn't have much of a "roast" flavor so I would be very careful with the black patent malt, if I want color I usually use carafa II.

My experience with protien rests is really not that good so I rarely bother. I had problems with head retention on heffe weizen (which is a really big problem in my opinion) doing protein rests. I would say if you do it, keep it short, no more that 20 mintues tops. Of course, I just love to do decoctions on any German type beer. I think they are almost mandatory for German wheat beers and I have had really good results with lagers also. I have a Munich Dunkel I am currently drinking which came out really nice, it was a double decoction (and I think I also boiled down some of the first runnings if I remember correctly). Anyhow, the reason I do them is because I am looking for the melonodin reactions. Anyway, good luck, let us know how it works out.

[Manx Guy]

Hi BW - thanks for the prompt reply!

The yeast arrived today for the brew but I have most of my FV's tied up for a week or two, so will try it in the new year... I plan to make a 2 litre starter then double it (4l) and pitch the slurry from 3 litres and 'bank' the rest in two 500ml batches.

I agree with you about the taste of Modello Negra - it is dark but has little if any roast flavour I got carafa III to adjust the colour and will sub that inplace of the roast malt (saving the roast for a stout)

I like the taste and mouthfeel of MN this is why I planned to clone it (or attempt one at least) the bonus is if it goes well I will have yeast to do other beers in the VMO style range- happy days!

I doubt my AG skills would run to a pale lager at the moment - although my soft water may allow it once I'm confident my technique is otherwise sound (yeast handling in particular).

Looking forward to giving this a try!


I will post up the brewday and share my success/failures...

Guy

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

I've been looking at the yeast pitching rates for my Vienna lager - I'll be using Wyeast Bavarian (its apparently the same as WL Oktoberfest) and it seems that I need to make a one litre starter and then step that up by adding another litre of wort ofter 3-4 days... Apparently I need at least 12 million cells/ml for a cool pitch of a <1060 OG wort -

This will ensure I get the correct pitching rate for a cooler ferment 55-58F, rather than pitching warm(er) and then cooling

It will be simple to do my Oktoberfest as I'll make a starter from the yeast slurry which should give me a good pitching rate!
I just need to get my initial starter right...

Can any one put me straight on this please?

Cheers!

Guy