all grain brewing problem

[gnorwebthgimi]

Hello All

This is my homebrewing story, so that others don't have to learn from my mistakes and hopefully someone can explain the one issue I still need help on:

I started brewing kits, which was basically emptying a can of hopped malt extract into a (sterilised) fermenting bucket filling up with water and adding yeast then transferring to a barrel after fermenting.
Lesson one was that beer shouldn't be fermented in a hot place like an airing cupboard as it produces fusel alcohols which make your beer have a hot after taste or burn (a bit like the warm feeling whisky gives you).

Lesson two was that it is better to under carbonate a barrel and run out of pressure than over carbonate and come home to a very large puddle of beer and need to buy another barrel. (you can quickly add more sugar to a barrel and any yeast still alive might re-pressurise your barrel (try not to let much air get in the barrel), or you may have to drink a lot of beer quickly before it spoils (within three days) especially if air gets back though the tap, so keep an eye on tap pressure).

Then I started all grain brewing, without much investment in equipment.
I mash in cool box, after an hours mash, I transfer that to a grain bag in a plastic bucket and use a siphon to draw the wort from the bottom into another bucket.

Lesson three is that stuck sparges are a B****, I originally tried using the tap on the bucket to let the wort flow through but quickly found I needed something that didn't get clogged by the grain bag, so I used the siphon, which doesn't get stuck. (I still need better sparging equipment because of low efficiency). I also filter the wort through muslin to get rid of any sediment as it flows into bucket because grain bags don't create a good grain bed filter.

I then boil the wort for 60 minutes with hops added for 60 minutes, 15 minutes and 5 minutes. I also add whilfloc at 15 minutes.

Lesson four is that whirlfloc rocks and makes absolutely clear beer!

I then chill using a standard wort chiller.
Lesson five is that if you don't use a wort chiller the alpha acid in your hops convert more than you planned and you will have no hop aroma or hop flavour and too much hop bitterness.

I then leave to ferment until obvious signs of fermentation have stopped and barrel. I recently introduced a secondary fermentation stage to cure my remaining problem but I only did this for two days (I was worried about oxidation)

Here is the problem I still have:

When the beer has finished fermenting it tastes great, I barrel it and it carbonates within a few days and I can start drinking nice beer within a week of barrelling. After a further week (two weeks after barreling) it develops a slightly sour taste that overrides all the other tastes, which usually gets better with age but NEVER goes back to how nice it was! This has happened 10 times now at least!

Here are some other salient facts:

I always use Safale s04 except on one occasion when I made a wheat beer (the wheat beer cleared at the two week point, which I wasn't expecting as I wanted it cloudy, which is acceptable for the style). The wheat beer yeast (safale WB 06) didn't really perform like I hoped (I fermented at about 23'c and it didn't give off loads of flavour as I hoped, it tasted closer to lager than wheat beer but was still very nice). Similar issue, that at two weeks the beer changed flavour, in this case becoming very slightly sour and slightly bitter and but drinkable.

Generally I pitch the s04 and within four days it has stopped fermenting and dropped clear. On the fifth day I barrel (and in one instance transferred to secondary for 2 days).

When I used up my last kit ale (in between all grain brews) I didn't have any problems with sourness the beer only improved with age. But maybe I left the beer in the fermenter longer to ferment because it dropped clear slower than s04 (even so I would have been 7 days at most).

I don't believe that its an infection because, it only happened with all grain brews.

I'm not sure if it's yeast because I seemed to have the same problem with two out of three yeast varieties.

so my options are:

Leave the secondary fermentation longer and see if that helps, (This may mean that it's some problem with the yeast needing more time before barrelling). Advice on how long I should be primary and secondary fermenting for and why would be appreciated. (bearing in mind this isn't a problem for the kit ale).

Switch to a different yeast, I got some safale t58 to experiment with (I could also try bakers yeast for a laugh)

Improve my brewing practices (I doubt this will help as it's only after barrelling that the beer starts to taste slightly sour but offer any suggestions on what might be going wrong and why)

Try brewing in a local hospital surgery under strictly sterile conditions (I don't believe it's an infection but it's always possible, if you think it's this is there a specific infection you think it is?)


Please post what you think are the likely causes of the issue and WHY and I will let you know the correct answer once I brew awesome beer without this issue.

Edit- After lots of experiments to rule out this and that, I stuck the boiler outside wrapped in a fleece and it boiled harder, I left the lid partially on and left it boiling for longer and as a result I have cleaner nicer tasting beer. Looks like it was hot break not precipitating out of solution that caused my issue. Good luck to any new brewers trying to brew good beer, it can be done but it requires lots of patience and practise.

[bigdave]

Could it be an issue with your water supply? If the water isnt treated correctly odd flavours can rear their head in the finished brew. First couple of beers I did, I found that after a couple of weeks it developed a medicinal taste, the helpful chaps on here suggested using 1/2 a campden tablet in the water before I brew and low and behold no more odd tasting beer.

[gnorwebthgimi]

Worth a shot, will camden the water before mash and sparge. (next brew in a couple of weeks assuming that this brew doesn't significantly improve).
Any ideas why the odd flavour would develop and not be present straight after fermentation?

May have to try this with the following: leaving the secondary fermentation longer and sterilising the siphon and barrel with EXTREME prejudice before barrelling.

Also why does beer not oxidise when it goes into a barrel that has about 1 gallon of air in but will oxidise if a few bubbles get into the barrel?

[staplefordbill]

I recently introduced a secondary fermentation stage to cure my remaining problem but I only did this for two days (I was worried about oxidation)

Why were you worried about oxidation? Do you mean you racked the beer to another container after primary fermentation, but didn't add any priming sugar? That's what I do if I'm bottling beers as opposed to barrelling. It lets the dead yeast settle out and the beer mature.

I use a Better Bottle and I've left brews in it for 2 or 3 weeks without problems. You might have problems if you used an ordinary brewing bucket or fermenter, but Better Bottles are ideal as the plastic's of a different type (can't remember which) so doesn't let as much air in.

[gnorwebthgimi]

You pretty much guessed it, I racked it into a another fermenting bucket because I don't have anything air tight (apart from barrels) and I didn't want it to oxidise so I barrelled after two days. I think my problem is to do with yeast because it always happens after barrelling, I just don't know why or how I can fix.

[Spud395]

Well water or mains water?
If your water supply comes from a mains supply you will need to treat with campden and will benifit from more treatment.
Refer to Chris-x1's article in brewing liquor

[gnorwebthgimi]

Hi Spud

It's nice to get a plus 1 for water treatment. I'm starting to lean toward this. Although I could be possible that this explains why it didn't happen with the kit ale it maybe because of either mashing (I am now starting to suspect) or boiling. I have extremely hard water with 351 CaCO3 so that might alter the mash alkalinity. I will probably brew using water from a supermarket and see if this helps.

Is it common for poor water quality to lead to the development of off flavours after fermentation has finished? The beer always tastes great for two weeks then seems to go stale with a sort of sour flavour, very difficult to describe.

Thanks for the help so far. Please keep suggestions coming.

[Big G]

because grain bags don't create a good grain bed filter

I always get good efficiency with a good grain bag.

I also use bottled water for all my brews, I pay £6 for 32l so I know what im always getting. Maybe try this once to eliminate some of your problems you may have.

I try not to get bogged down with all the science behind it all & keep it simple.

[gnorwebthgimi]

Hi Big G

I don't get particularly good efficiency from my sparge set up and it's something I would like to improve. However, I'm unlikely to do so unless it causes a problem and I'm reasonably happy with the set up.

I thought I might get some stick for my techniques but I'm glad to hear other brewers are doing the same.

Where do you buy your water from?

[Big G]

Where do you buy your water from?

Asda were doing a special for 2 packs 4 x 2l bottles for £2.50 last week. They always do a 5l for just under £1 (empty's always come in handy for a gallon wine or cider brew). Aldi also do 4 x 2l for £1.60ish. I always add a campden tab aswell.

I thought I might get some stick for my techniques but I'm glad to hear other brewers are doing the same

Im now onto my 5th AG so fairly new myself. Have been doing kits & extracts for some time. I find there is no right or wrong way, just what suits and works for yourself. There are always different ways to do things, even if the traditionalists dont agree!

[gnorwebthgimi]

Thanks Big G

I am ran a test on my boiler to see if the element is creating "off tastes" because of the calcium build up and the boiled water does taste disgusting. I think it's a symptom not a cause and this would point to poor water quality.

I guess if the water that gets boiled in my boiler doesn't taste nice then it's entirely possible for the beer it makes not to taste nice.

So I will buy some water from a supermarket and use that with a campden tablet. I will also clean my kettle element in some coke or vinegar to make it shiny again before it's next use.

Does anyone clean their kettle elements in between brews? I'm in a hard water area and my element got quite a thick calcium layer after the first brew, I just assumed this is normal.

Coincidentally I didn't get this issue with my first brew because I drank it too quickly!

[coatesg]

Does anyone clean their kettle elements in between brews? I'm in a hard water area and my element got quite a thick calcium layer after the first brew, I just assumed this is normal.

Every time - it gets covered in protein from the boil if I don't, which then burns on the next time it's used...

[Spud395]

+1 every time and take the tap appart to clean inside that as well.

[gnorwebthgimi]

What were the consequences to the taste if your brew for not cleaning your kettle elements or have never been as foolish as me?

[Fallen]

Hmm, I've never cleaned my element either. a) How do you clean; b) What effect does not cleaning it have?