Hofbrau Oktoberfest Bier

[Subsonic]

I recently ordered a mixed case of Oktoberfest beers and realy liked the above and the Augustiner Hell. Both beers were light, clear, nicely carbonated with a good balance of hops and fairly alcohol which wasn't too noticeable. A good quaffing beer. I usually make wheat beers and bitters / IPA's but fancy a go at one of these. My last Oktoberfest was really a bit dark and perhaps too alcoholic. I can lager in my kegerator and with the colder weather could ferment in my garage at 10c. Stepped mashes are no problem. Does anybody out there have a well tried and proven recipe? i'm thinking Mysterio or Barleywater may have some ideas? Cheers for any info. Subsonic.

[mysterio]

Don't have a tried and tested clone although I have drank a lot of that beer and brewed a few Oktoberfests (mostly on the darker end).

I suspect the Hofbrau Oktoberfest is 100% pilsner malt, I would get the Weyermann pilsner malt (Malt Miller does it for a good price). If you want maybe add some Carapils, up to 5%. If you use CRS then add enough to get Bicarbonates down to 10 ppm or so. Or you could try acid malt to achieve the same thing. Gravity would be around 1.056.

Hops would be Hallertau Magnum to get about 18 IBU then maybe the smallest amount of Hallertau Hersbruker/Mittlefruh for aroma, 15g max. The hops are very light in these beers.

White Labs Southern German Lager would be a very good choice, do a big starter and decant the starter beer and pitch only the yeast, ferment at 10C. If you use dried use W34/70 but I get much better results from the liquid yeast. If you can filter then that would get you even closer and is a big part of the crisp mouthfeel, also you will want to lager in the kegerator for 3 - 4 weeks.

[Zapp Brannigan]

Don't have a tried and tested clone although I have drank a lot of that beer and brewed a few Oktoberfests (mostly on the darker end).

I suspect the Hofbrau Oktoberfest is 100% pilsner malt, I would get the Weyermann pilsner malt (Malt Miller does it for a good price). If you want maybe add some Carapils, up to 5%. If you use CRS then add enough to get Bicarbonates down to 10 ppm or so. Or you could try acid malt to achieve the same thing. Gravity would be around 1.056.

Hops would be Hallertau Magnum to get about 18 IBU then maybe the smallest amount of Hallertau Hersbruker/Mittlefruh for aroma, 15g max. The hops are very light in these beers.

White Labs Southern German Lager would be a very good choice, do a big starter and decant the starter beer and pitch only the yeast, ferment at 10C. If you use dried use W34/70 but I get much better results from the liquid yeast. If you can filter then that would get you even closer and is a big part of the crisp mouthfeel, also you will want to lager in the kegerator for 3 - 4 weeks.

I have yet to have a go at Marzen/Oktoberfest, so this question is not loaded in any way, but what is the logic behind getting the bicarb down to such a low level please?

I always thought that 20-30 ppm was the norm for lower end beers (in terms of bicarb) such as Pilseners etc, so is there something about the Oktoberfest style that demands such low bicarb levels?

Thanks, and sorry for the slight derailment..

[Subsonic]

Thanks Mate, knew you would be lurking! I am using CRS and PH meter / water spreadsheet now, but not 100% happy with that yet. I had a bicarb reading of 171 ppm for an Oktoberfest as opposed to 3 for a pilsener from general water profiles. My bicarb is 224. Mysterio, what water treatment calculator are you using if you don't mind me asking? I am getting tempted to dive into buying some brewing software and would appreciate any advice you may have. Cheers for the info - as always spot on. Subsonic.

[Barley Water]

I just tapped my Octoberfest this last weekend and I am pretty pleased with the way it came out. First of all I don't believe I have had the Hofbrau House version although I am told that the stuff the Germans now drink is pretty pale (I would call that a Helles but what do I know). The last one I made was basicly Pils malt and Munich malt in roughly equal proportions with some Special Roast thrown in (because I wanted just a little more of the "toast" flavor) and a bit of Carafa II to darken it up a bit. I would say mine is a fairly dark copper color with a white head which of course you could adjust by fooling with the amount of Carafa. As usual, I did a double decoction (boiling for 30 minutes each time) 'cause you just got to have those melonodin flavors. Anyway, I rather like a somewhat drier intepretation and besides the subtle toast flavor, the special roast malt seems to enhance the drier impression of the beer. Many formulations I have seen (including the one I was using before I tried this one) have at least some crystal type malts however I rather like the beer without them. Anyway the beer tastes pretty "rounded" if that makes any sense, there is absolutely no astringency and the hops are there but just enough to support the malt (I used the traditional Noble German varieties). Overall the beer is malty but not at all sweet. I want to say the initial gravity was 1.055 and really I would not want to let it get any higher as the beer will begin to get too sweet and "bock like". I really need to pull three bottles off for our big contest in March before I pull out my liter stein and start sucking this stuff down in earnest.

[Subsonic]

Barley Water - Excellent post thanks. I thought you would be lurking too! I have never tried the decoction and would appreciate a bit of info on that if its no problem. I agree with your views on the crystal and I understand your comments on the 'rounded' nature of the beer. 1055 is good for me, my last Oktoberfest went haywire due to my efficiency shooting up and I just wasn't happy. it was 'ok' to drink, but all wrong style wise. The Hofbrau is as pale as your signature btw. It is as you say, a 'dry beer' and perhaps that is why I liked it. I tend to err on the dry side, maybe my use of Nottingham in nearly all my beers is to blame. For your info I had Todd Kellenbenz to stay a few weeks back and he gave my American Wheat a 9/10 which I was pretty dam pleased with. That said he had some good comments on my water and I am working on that at the moment. If you have a good in house Helles I would be very interested to see the recipe and maybe give it a whirl. In exchange I could post you some of my 'home hops'. I have 2 packs on their way to the foamrangers to see if they arrive / get pass customs. If they do I am more than happy to send you 100g of pure Kent hops for you to fool about with, I am sure you could have fun with them. Subsonic

[Barley Water]

Well, when I do decoctions I cheat. What I do is get the mash to sacrification temperature using simple infusion techniques and let the whole thing convert. I then pull a very dry decoction (say roughly 1/3 of the grain in my mashtun) and boil it for anywhere from 10 minutes to 1/2 an hour (the darker the beer, the longer I boil). I then put that back into the main mash tun, wait 10 minutes or so then pull the next one. I just boil it again then add it back. I don't worry too much about the temperature rise, I really just want the melonodin reactions since everything is already converted. To avoid having problems with tanin extraction, I buffer everything with that 5.2 stuff, it works great (and I have medium hard water which is slightly alkaline). By the way, before I start boiling, I add water to the decoction to make sure it is pretty moist, if you burn it you will for sure screw up the beer. Because the enzymes are still in the liquid in the main mash, everything works out just fine. I do this with my weizen biers, Octoberfests, Munich Dunkels, Helles and Alt biers, never had a problem.

Most German beers are made with very simple grists. The Helles I make is esentially 100% German pils malt (ok, maybe just for grins I put in a little carapils but I really don't know that it makes any difference at all). Keep the O.G. in the 1.048 to 1.050 range (no higher or the beer will get sweeter than you want), use German noble hops for bittering only to maybe 18-20 IBU and you are all set. I do a double decoction and boil each one for maybe 15 minutes and you are then good to go. After that it is all about good lager technique, temperature control and pitch a great big bunch of healthy yeast so you attenuate like you want.

[Subsonic]

Excellent. I will get a recipe formulated and have a go. Subsonic

[mysterio]

BW is right, all the Oktoberfest from the big 6 Munich breweries are Helles with a bit more alcohol. TBH though none of these are decocted anymore. If you're wanting to brew a good 'old style' Oktoberfest (which I would recommend anyway), then a good dose of Munich malt and maybe some CaraMunich would be the way to go, and maybe a decoction (although I would never recommend this personally!!)

[Subsonic]

Thanks for all the advice. Here is the recipe I am proposing based on a 40 litre end volume of 1050 with 72% efficiency

9kg lager malt. 90 minute mash. My water is hard as nails (CaC03 hardness at 293mg/l) so had proposed pre-boiling it and adding 3g gypsum to mash and sparge. I have not yet obtained total alkalinity from the water company (just hardness as CaC03 and can’t figure out how to use this in grahams spreadsheet yet). Either way CRS does not seem to be able to alter my water to the desired profile but boiling may.

Magnum 14.5% 20 grams for 60 minutes 14.5 IBU
Hallertau Hersbrucker 2.9% 15 grams for 10 minutes 2.9% IBU

Total IBU 17.4

I am using Whitelabs Southern German lager (liquid) ferment at 10c.

Question 1 – Mash temp and sparge temp? Any advice
Question 2 – the liquid yeast, Mysterio (or others) how do you make your starter for this? I usually am a simple dried or smack pack and dump it in man, but appreciate this German effort may need a more subtle approach!

Thanks, any other tips appreciated. Subsonic.

[mysterio]

Mash around 65 or 66, or BW may give you some decoction advice. I don't bother but I'm not at as advanced a stage as Mr BarleyWater. Sparge just at your normal temp. How come the CRS doesn't work?

I think making a starter and getting the right volume of yeast is the most important thing for these beers. I would do a 4L starter, or maybe 5 if you can handle it. Keep it agitated or aerated if you can, ideal is a stir plate. Or just swirl it every now and again.

Use 100g of DME to each litre. Boil it for 10 minutes, cool, add to your flask and add the yeast. Keep it swirled. You will notice activity after a day or two. Allow it to grow, ferment out, then when it looks done you can chill it overnight in the fridge. You should notice a good layer of yeast on the bottom of the flask. Decant the starter 'beer' carefully then pitch into your batch of beer at 10C. Make sure the beer ferments completely!

This might seem like a big PITA but the results are worth it, there are no short cuts unfortunately.

Good luck, let us know how you fare.

[Subsonic]

Cheers Mysterio.

The CRS may work. Its just that I cannot figure out how to put my water figures into Grahams water calculator as I have no alkalinity figure. I have the following details for my water:-

Hardness CaC03 293mg/l Ca 117.2 mgl Magnesium 10mg/l Sodium 18mg/l Potassium 2mg/l Sulphate 24.3mg/l and Chloride 32.6

Can I use the CRS based on the Calcium figure of 117.2mg/l to drop it to a target of 10mg/lor so?

Thanks for the other yeast advice, will do that.
Sub

[Barley Water]

Humm, first of all, I would kick the O.G. up to 1.055, it is supposed to be festbier after all (but don't let it get any higher or you will end up with a Maibock instead).

Munich water has some temporary hardness but not alot of permenant hardness, if your water is supper hard, maybe just cut it 50% with distilled water. If you want to find out if your water is basic (and I bet it is since it is hard) just get some pH test strips. My water is moderately hard and has a combination of carbonates as well as sulfates and the water is somewhat alkaline. What I do is just use that 5.2 stuff. That stuff is a buffer and it gets the mash down to proper pH without doing anything else, I don't even bother measuring anymore. I also batch sparge and I add it everytime I add more water to the grains, that reduces the risk of extracting tannins by the way. Because you are using all pils malt you will have more problems with pH since there are no dark grains in the grist to help out. The other thing hard water does is affect the way hop bitterness presents itself. I really need to be careful otherwise I will end up with sharp hop flavors because of my water, and you for sure don't want that in an Octoberfest. By the way, your hopping looks fine to me.

I think if I were doing that beer (and not having tasted the Hoffbrau House stuff) I might be tempted to add just a smidge of Melonodin malt (especially if you are not going to do a decoction). After that it is just a matter of doing really good lager technique, you know, take care of your yeast and it will take care of you. Good luck.

[Subsonic]

Thanks for the info. I did wonder about pushing up to 1055, will do now as I was only getting 4.9% at 1050 which was a bit low. I have now figured my water after having used the brewferm CRS site or whatever it was. So I can drop my hardness right down. My PH is usually 7.16 from the tap and I have a digital meter and buffer solution to work with. Will do the yeast thing (got no stir plate but can work on that and ask my lab buddy to maybe propogate the starter for me). I'm good to go so thanks, and will post result to you both. Sub

[sladeywadey]

I brought back 20 bottles of Augustiner Hell from Munich in Aug. Just necking one now. If you can brew anything close to that then that's a worthy brew indeed. Lovely.