Another Vienna Lager

[HighHops]

This weather is perfect for making lager. My brew room is an almost constant 10-12C. So I got another Vienna on at the weekend, with a bias towards munich! Let me know what you think.

Vienna Gold 1841

2.00 Kg Pilsner malt
1.00 Kg Vienna
2.00 Kg Munich
0.20 Kg Torrefied Wheat

S23 yeast

24 IBU target
45 g Tettnanger At start of 60 min boil
16 g Tettnanger At 20 min from end of boil
12 g Tettnanger At 10 min from end of boil

[BigEd]

Looks tasty but IMO the best Vienna beers are made with just Vienna malt. The 50/50 blending of the Pilsner and Munich create a similar color to Vienna malt but will achieve more of a Festbier flavor, not that there's anything wrong with that. My favorite Vienna is 97% Vienna and 3% CaraFoam.

[Barley Water]

First of all, I agree that 100% Vienna is the way to go. I can't tell for sure but depending on your OG, you have what looks like an Octoberfest to me but the beer will be very good regardless. I think the best examples are pretty dry so make sure you get good attenuation and I would say the OG should be no higher than 1.050 or the stuff is going to start getting too heavy and sweet. If I were making it of course I would do a decoction but if not, maybe just a smidge of Melonodin malt should add a bit of interest and boost the malt impression. The other things to think about are perhaps adding just a little specialty malt to add complexity and make your beer just a little different. As an example, I added 6oz of Special Roast to a 5 gallon batch of Octoberfest and I was pleased the way it came out. Because a Vienna Lager is a little lighter, be careful if you start screwing around, it would be fairly easy to over do it. Of course the normal precautions pertain to a lager like this, it's all about really good brewhouse technique and yeast handling, good luck.

[HighHops]

OK guys, I'll give it a go! How does this sound?

Next up

Vienna Malt 4.5Kg
Flaked Barley 200g
Carapils 200g

Hop Variety Type Alpha Time lb: oz grams Ratio
Northern Brewer Whole 9.3 % 90 mins 0 lbs. 0.4 oz 12 grams 16.7%
Hallertauer Hersbrucker Whole 3.2 % 90 mins 0 lbs. 0.8 oz 24 grams 33.3%
Hallertauer Hersbrucker Whole 3.2 % 20 mins 0 lbs. 0.8 oz 24 grams 33.3%
Saaz Whole 3.5 % 10 mins 0 lbs. 0.4 oz 12 grams 16.7%

Final Volume: 23 Litres
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.012
Alcohol Content: 5% ABV
Total Liquor: 33.2 Litres
Mash Liquor: 12.3 Litres
Mash Efficiency: 80 %
Bitterness: 26 EBU
Colour: 14 EBC

[Barley Water]

My only other suggestion is to consider replacing the Northern Brewer bittering hops with a German noble hop. I have moderate hard water here and I really need to be careful with the hops in a beer like this because the water can cause a situation where the hops come off somewhat harsh. Other than that, go for it and good luck.

[HighHops]

Cheers BW! Usually use tettnanger & saaz, but want to try a northern brewer / hersbrucker combo. My alkalinity is about 50mg/L so should be ok on the higher alpha hops. I am also using some Hersbrucker in the mix in the copper as well as the late addition to soften the effect of the northern brewer. Total bitterness I'm aiming for is 26 IBU so should be in the right range.

I thought that viennas / munichs were traditionally made with higher alkalinity water and the darker malts of this style (relative compared to pils) compensated for the alkalinity.

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

I think your comment about the water in the Munich and Vienna ares is correct - or at least it was from a historical point of view...

I understand that there is a sub-style of Vienna lagers that became popular in Mexico, for the same reasosn - water unsuitable for producing light lagers (unitl an understanding of water treatment was avaialble)
This lead to the style known as Graf Vienna where the use of corn is often used to make the beer a little lighter and more suited to the Mexican climate (also cheaper, so a win-win) they also tend to add a bit of de bittered black malt to further darkern the beer to a deep ruby almost black colour.

One of my fav beers is Modello Negra (The name was changed in the 70's from the correct term Negro, to avoid causeing offence) which is probably the most well known 'Vienna' Lager, since it popularity waned in Europe...

It is much more malty than the typical Mexican 'Cervesa' but yet still light enough to be sessionable in a warm climate...

Take a look here at the thread I started a while ago - it contains the 'clone' recipe for Modello Negra (Graf Vienna) plus some helpfull advice on Vienna Lagers in general:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32886&hilit=modello+negra

Cheers!

Guy

[HighHops]

Hi Guy!

Thanks for the link. Interesting read! Have you decided on a recipe? Are you doing a decoction mash and are you going with corn?

I took Barley Water's advice and went all Hersbrucker on the hops. I used WL Bock yeast WLP833 for my last Vienna, the ayinger strain recommended by mysterio. I made a 4L starter and drained the starter beer off after a week of stepping up and just pitched the slurry at 12C. It went off like a rocket. In fact it was down to 1014 after 7 days, but was a bit sulphury on the nose and acetaldehyde dry green apple taste. Put the temp up to 15C and after a couple more days it's 1012 and the sulphur has gone and the apple taste is much less. I'll probably give it another week on the yeast and then rack it off for lagering after Christmas. I'm planning a German pilsner on this yeast cake.

Let us know what you think of the bavarian yeast Guy!

[Manx Guy]

Hi HH

I haven't yet finalised a recipe but if I do go with the modelloe clone I will sub Carafa spec in place of the black malt, and may well skip the corn...
either way I'm not going to go for the decoction, I'll keep it simple in terms of wort production and then concentrate on getting a good fermentation.

Did you ferment your starter cool or at 18C as it seems to suggest on the wyyeast website? I'll be using Light DME for my starter. I'll make a litre and step up to 2l (maybe even a third time to 4l) and crash cool it and then try and pitch only the slurry (if possible)

I have a (Kit) Lager on at the minute whihc is on a repitch of 2 packs of S-23, it too had hit 1012 after 6 days so I warmed it up to 15C its now at 1009 (9 days) and I've let it sit back to 12C and will rack off to secondary on the 27th for lagering for 10 days @ 2c I then bottle and leave at 12C for a week before returning to the cellar (but off the floor where the temp is a steady 4C (at this time of year)
After about 70 days in the bottle at 4 its a good drink!
I did this exact same brew and lagering procedure last year and it was a great brew - especialy for a kit!
Dry, clean and mildy hoppy with a reasonable body - on a par with Peroni and other 'premium lagers'

So I think if I reapeat the same sort of proceedure with the Vienna once its doen I'll be on to a winner! However I will probably leave it longer to lager in bulk before bottling as I think the bavarian yeast is a poor floculator

Cheers!

Guy

[HighHops]

Did you ferment your starter cool or at 18C as it seems to suggest on the wyyeast website? I'll be using Light DME for my starter. I'll make a litre and step up to 2l (maybe even a third time to 4l) and crash cool it and then try and pitch only the slurry (if possible)

Kept my starter at 18-20C and stepped it up to 4-5L the same as you plan to do.

I made a lager at the start of November with 2 packs of s23, which has just had 4 weeks lagering in the shed. A simple recipe - 4.5Kg malt, 250g Carahell and 100g Torrefied wheat. Hallertau mittelfruh at the start of the boil and saaz late addition. Can't wait to get stuck in to it but will have to wait until the new year before I get a chance to bottle it. The most important ingredient in a lager is patience. Hope it's worth the wait.

[Manx Guy]

Hi HH!

I'm thinking of bumping my vienna lager up a brew day to my next one!

Only thing is I haven't yet got my starter going... If I get the pack smacked tonight when I get home then make the starter wort after dinner with a view to pitching the yeast either tonight or first thing in the morning Is it likely I'll have a pitchable amount by brewday (Monday the 10th)?
I'll start with either a 1l litre and add another litre after 24 hours (@18c) then add a further 2 litres 36-48 hours later which would work out about 24 before pitching into my wort...

If its a bit tight time wise I will wait and do the brew on saturday and start the starter on the weekend giving it6-7 days to get going...

Any advice ? dive in!

Cheers!

Guy

[HighHops]

Hi Guy

I think there are two ways of doing it. Step the starter up and pitch the whole starter after 3 or 4 days when it's at full krausen or wait til it's finished fermenting then crash cool the starter, pour off the sour starter beer and pitch the yeast cake.

I usually just pitch the cake and a week is usually enough time. I'd start smaller on the starter though with 1/2 Litre, then step straight up to 4L after 2-3 days.

[Manx Guy]

Many thanks!

I made a 600ml starter after smacking the pack - thinking that by the time the pack had swelled a bit the starter would be cool...

Well the pack hadn't noticeably swelled thismorning after about 12 hours at 18-20C

I've left it and will look at it tonight and if no swelling pitch into the sdtarter anyway and see what happens...

I have 3 packs of W34/70 as a back up, incase its not going by brew day or alternatively I can brew the following weekend instead of the Monday (as planned)


Guy

[Barley Water]

Just dump the yeast into the starter once it is cool enough. If you are using a stir plate, you will know soon enough if the yeast is going to do it's thing or not. Perhaps you already know this but I would step the starter up to the point where you have somewhere around 3X your initial starter so that you get good attenuation and a good, clean fermentation (assuming roughly a 5 gallon batch). Generally what I do when making lagers is do two and sometimes three beers off the same yeast cake, that way I know I am pitching enough yeast. I am trying to get ready for our big contest in late March so once I am done making the "young Aud Bruin" this weekend for blending with my old stuff, I am going into wheat bier production so it will be really fresh for the contest. After that, it's lager time again for me, maybe a helles, CAP and perhaps a Maibock this year.

[Manx Guy]

Hi, thanks for you post !

I do plan to add a further 3 litres of wort once the yest has got going...

The yeast is apack of Wyyeast 2206 (Bavarian Lager) with a date of production of 06/10 so it should get going soon... I'll pitch the pack contacts into the wort tonight after dinner and hopefully by morning there will be activity



Cheers!

Guy