Conical Fermenter fridge

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beermonsta

Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by beermonsta » Sat May 07, 2011 10:47 pm

well, been making this for a while but though it time to make a post :) Please excuse the amount of photos (I know you all love a good picture or two)

This is how it started out...
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and after a lot of hacking and tearing it became this...
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and even more hacking and prizing of the coils from the insulation foam resulted in the coils having nothing to support them, and as the are so thin I didn't want them to break so I built a wooden frame to support them and the compressor...
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and just to check I hadn't damaged any of the pipe work I plugged her in. It was nice to see the moisture in the air condensing on the freezing (evaporator) coils forming ice crystals...
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Next up was making the frame out of scant...
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and adding additional support to the base for the legs of the conical to sit on. The centre area will be insulated with kingspan foam...
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Now the fun really starts! Here I have moved the compressor and coils frame and fitted it into the main frame...
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Now I made an internal fitting door and checked the fit of my conical...
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Now I used my pocket hole jig to box off the compressor. This needs to stay on the outside like on a normal fridge as it will generate heat. I also wanted a solid wooden face to attach the 200 Watt greenhouse heater to, as I don't want the heater to potentially melt the insulation foam, and it will make mounting it easier...
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and finally for tonight adding of the kingspan foam insulation...
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I am going to keep adding the insulation foam as time permits, add aluminium ducting tape, then attach the heater, ATC 800+ and do some data logging using a temperature logger to check performance i.e. switch on to cool to a set temperature (and see how long this takes) then switch off and see how long it take to return to ambient temperature. This will give me some idea of how effective the insulation is. I will then consider if it is necessary to add a second layer of insulation. I will also play around with the ATC-800+ in particular the thermometer probe and position, although I believe a small bottle of liquid will "buffer" the hysteresis of cycling of the heater and cooler.

Oh yeah, and we've (domclarke and I) have cut our first false bottom tonight - see this post which will be updated in due time...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41175 more cutting tomorrow. Still enough to make 3 more false bottoms (2 reserved already) if you interested please PM me!

DomClarke

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by DomClarke » Sat May 07, 2011 10:57 pm

And only one of us bled in the process of making the false bottom! As every DIY'er knows f you haven't bled or sworn you've done something wrong!

Chiltern Brewer

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by Chiltern Brewer » Sat May 07, 2011 11:07 pm

I love it already! =D>

Can't wait to see the finished article. I'd be surprised if you need to add more insulation. What sort of finish were you planning for the outside?

beermonsta

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by beermonsta » Sun May 08, 2011 9:52 am

I thought the SHINY kingspan finish was quite nice :lol:
Dom reckons I should clad it in stainless :shock: (when I win the lottery)
just remembered I'll need to add a fan as well to get the air moving around inside.

anyway, need to get off this craptop and get making some more false bottoms (love saying that!)

Chiltern Brewer

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by Chiltern Brewer » Sun May 08, 2011 10:24 am

How about a blue paint job? :lol:

EccentricDyslexic

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by EccentricDyslexic » Sun May 08, 2011 11:00 am

V nice!

Do you have to take the FV out to clean it? Have considered going conical but so far resisted the urge....;-)

Steve

leedsbrew

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by leedsbrew » Sun May 08, 2011 11:21 am

Very nice man! :D

DomClarke

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by DomClarke » Sun May 08, 2011 12:19 pm

There is room to clean it while in the cabinet, so should get away with in situ cleaning!

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Kev888
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Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by Kev888 » Sun May 08, 2011 12:26 pm

Coming along nicely now!! Quite familiar in some ways - looks very solid.

I was going to suggest ply cladding to stiffen up the structure, but on reflection your frame doesn't need to support the conical like mine, so probably wouldn't need it.

the best of luck with the rest of it!

Ceers
kev
Kev

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Hogarth
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Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by Hogarth » Sun May 08, 2011 1:55 pm

Excellent job, Beermonsta. Very professional. =D>

For the exterior, how about tongue-and-groove cladding for a retro '70s look?

beermonsta

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by beermonsta » Sun May 08, 2011 9:19 pm

Thank you all for the very kind words.

Yes we though of the "blue pain job" too :lol: we shall see! - it seems that it has now been christened "the Tardis" :lol:
Tongue and groove - it would end up looking like a sauna :lol:
cleaning - as Dom said CIP. Using a steam wall paper stripper to clean sanitise initially, then a quick rinse with sanitising solution before use.

Kev - it's pretty sturdy now, and as you said it supports no weight to speak of, although I will probably add some triangle plywood pieces to strengthen the whole frame in each corner. The foam is a very tight fit and adds to its strength too.

Not done any more yet as been busy doing other brewery builds starting here...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41175
and today here...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41588

I will post more pictures as It progresses further.

beermonsta

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by beermonsta » Mon May 16, 2011 8:49 pm

ok a bit of an update from the weekend. First picture you can see I've added foam to the back beween the condensing and evaporation coil. I also closed off the compressor pump.
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Next up the string supporting the evaporation coil was cut and the coil was then supported using several screws, 2 either side of the tub at various locations. Also you can see the other side now has foam.
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and then the roof of the tardis...
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As you can see here in the door I used 2 layers of foam staggered to limit air gaps between the foam. The picture was taken looking upwards. Image

This took up a lot of time due to the rebate/recess cut into the edge of the foam. Here you can see this piece was ready to be split more or less into half, with the top bit to fit in at the top of the door
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and the fully enclosed tardis. I added some aluminium foil to the front door panels which does three things. 1) makes it more aesthetically pleasing with it's *ahem* shinyness :D 2) it seals any airgaps between the foam layers 3) helps to hold the foam in place.
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Notice the ATC-800 on the floor. I unplugged the fridge thermostat and noticed it works like a simple switch. I.e when closed the fridge is on, when open the fridge is off. Simple really. So this meant to use the ATC-800 it was a simple case of bridging the live and switched live that used to go to the thermostat. Then plugging the fridge power into the cooling circuit off the ATC-800. I set this to 5'C as the air temp was around 12'C (and it's the lowest the ATC-800 can go. PS - I've got a ATC-800+ waiting in a box ready to swap it over (with a quick re-wire))
I also threw in my "lucky-reptile TR-1 thermo data logger" to record the temp over 8 ish hours.
The next morning I went to recover the datalogger. Here you can see what I was expecting...condensation from the air inside had frozen onto the coils (remember the ice crystals in one of the earlier photos from the test run)
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and the resultant drops of water that had run off
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So as I predicted a long time ago (see Kev's post on his fermenter fridge build IIRC) I will need to put a plastic sheet on the back wall and direct the drips downwards. I reckon then something like a piece of capped guttering with a hole in the centre and a drain pipe leading to the tray that sits on top of the compressor should work a treat.
Finally the upload of the data shows again exactly what I was expecting...
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A sine type wave of heating and cooling. The max temp inside seems to rise to approx 6.2'C and down to 3.6 but the air average is 4.9'C (compared to the 5'C set point of the ATC-800) :D
As you can see this is fine apart from when I connect up the heater the overshoot, i.e. when the temp goes below 4'C would cause the heater to kick in. So to prevent this a simple damping to cause a small lag/stabilisation of the temp is required. i.e. either lagging the temperature probe or sticking it in a small volume of water is required. I'll do this sometime in the future to show the difference.
It's also interesting to notice the peak to trough (cooling period) to the peak to peak (full cycle of cooling followed by natural rise in temperature). The fridge seems to run for about 9 minutes each time it cools all through the night - fairly consistent as expected.
In terms of the temp rising back towards the normal air temp before the cooler kicks back in it starts off at about 9 minute intervals and gradually ends up at about 30 min intervals. This could be that the fridge over the night has cooled all of the internal objects (foam/wood etc) so by later in the morning it has less to cool, and thus stays cooler for longer. It could also be that the external temperature has dropped throughout the night (but I couldn't measure this :' )

The aim of the game is to try and extend this rise to take as long as possible - as this would mean the fridge has to come on less often to save energy. The cause of the rise is obviously heat gain (or cool air loss!) to the outside. So more insulation might be the key to fixing this. Obviously in reality No loss is optimal, but there will be loss to the conical and its contents whilst cooling and during the most active period of fermentation to keep the wort at the correct temperature which is acceptable.

admittidly I didn't insulate the floor during the test run (I am still walking around inside it to fit other bits like the heater etc) and I need to aluminium tape all the joints. I reckon this will make a big difference, but I am considering adding a second layer of insulation (seeing as I have it spare :lol: ). Funnily enough when stood inside it gets warm very rapidly as my body heat warms the small amount of air and the foil part of the kingspan reflects the infra-red heat back to me.

Jeesh - I better stop wittering on. More to follow in the future :)

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floydmeddler
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Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by floydmeddler » Mon May 16, 2011 9:23 pm

What a beaut!

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Kev888
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Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by Kev888 » Mon May 16, 2011 9:42 pm

Wow, much more hardcore than mine! Looking really good - must be about there now, you must be really pleased :-)

Interestingly, I don't get freezing in mine - not sure why its different, although my cooling pipes are within a sort of plate affair so maybe it spreads things a bit. I can't quite see from the older pictures, was there anything in the original fridge which you could replicate that did something similar or maybe lagged the cooling pipes a bit?

Cheers
Kev
Kev

beermonsta

Re: Conical Fermenter fridge

Post by beermonsta » Mon May 16, 2011 11:06 pm

ta Floyd! & Kev.
yup really pleased with the data from the logger on its first run - just as expected - nice and predictable. Plenty of scope for improvement yet but functional as it currently is :)
Yes mine did have a metal plate with a white thermo-grease compound covering the evaporator coil. I have kept it but might not use it. I kept it because I know that like a heatsink it could increase the surface area of the cooling capacity, but on the downside I also know it will create a greater area for condensation to form on! ...and there was plenty enough of that already!
On my evaporator pipes as soon as the compressor starts pumping the gas through it starts to freeze the top of the coil immediately and this continues to spread lower down the pipes (the coolent on the inside gets to at a guess -20'C) so no suprise. I guess if it was cladded in plates this temperature as you say would even out so by the time you see the outside of the plate it may show no sign of freezing. Thing is my temp controller was set at 5'C. If I set is closer to 0'C or -2'C for lagering then I'm sure it would produce more frost, but then the temp may not rise to above freezing so the frost may never thaw. The end result being that frost could accumulate around the evaporator pipes and I may have to defrost my tardis :shock:
I now see why frost free freezers were invented - this would involve a quick blast of heat to melt any accumulated frost, but not for me!
The evaporator pipes were originally covered in foam too which could cause a lag effect in cooling and also reduce condensation freeze but in reality will slow the cooling of the atmosphere. If I can deal with the condensate (as mentioned previously) I reckon I'll have a better response than a normal fridge. 9 mins to cool the air from 12'C to 5'C seems pretty good so far :)
many more tests to complete before I make any big claims :D but stable fermentation control is deffinately on the cards :D

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