Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

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kane

Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by kane » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:13 am

Hey guys,
After coming across the various cleaners/'sterilisers' and reading a fair few forum posts ive come to the conclusion of .........being very confused. :lol:

Ok so i know the general argument of sterilisers vs sanitisers (and why we aren't sterilising but merely 'sanitising'), but if the 'cleaner/sterilisers' e.g. vwp and the like don't actually sterilise, how can they be sold as such?
Or is it that they sterilise partially (i.e. kill off most nasties) - and this is what the americans would call sanitised?

Now am i correct in thinking that:
Youngs
Bruclean
VWP
etc...
All work in the same way? (Chlorine donors for sterilising + non caustic detergent for cleaning?)
How effective are they at sterilising?

Then there is oxyclean and chemipro oxi, do people just use these as cleaners/detergents?
(I read the post about needing about 20 times as much for chemipro to be a good steriliser)
How does chemipro oxi compare to vwp etc? (i only ask as it states it is no rinse - thus would be a no rinse cleaner/steriliser)

After cleaning with oxy/soda crystals etc, do people then use something along the lines of starsan for sterilisation?

So the available options are(?):
1. Use something like vwp etc to clean/sterilise in one (but need to rinse)
2. Use a cleaner + steriliser separately (probably with no rinse properties)
3. ...? (percarbonate etc ... or do these fall into category 2?)

Does the difference between 1 and 2 purely lie in the fact that people prefer no rinse sterilisers?
Or is the separate cleaning + steriliser combo more superior in its sterilising properties?

Im happy with my usage of vwp and youngs etc, i just wondered what other options are out there (read - cheapest :lol: ).


Cheers
Kane

boingy

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by boingy » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:19 am

As you say, there are loads of different options.

The cheapest is Soda Crystals or cheap brand Oxi for cleaning plus thin supermarket "value" bleach for sanitising. I'm very sensitive to the smell of bleach (I can't stand it) so I use Videne instead (it's no rinse which also suits my laziness). There is a bit of a trend away from Videne but I'm happy with it.

Don't get hung up on the sanitise/sterilise words. It's something that has caused plenty of "discussion" in the past but actually is not that important!

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Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by GrowlingDogBeer » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:30 am

I agree with boingy

Personally I use cheap supermarket Oxy cleaner to clean with, then I sanitise with Starsan, as no rinse is easier than using bleach.

Starsan in my mind is actually really cheap as you use such a small amount of it, I just spray a bit on using a garden sprayer, just enough to make the surface wet, then shake the excess off.

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Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by Aleman » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:44 am

Agree with boingy.

I try and avoid chlorine based compounds as the possibility of getting TCP like flavours in the beer is increased . . . so you then have to rinse the residue away. . . . however I am currently testing a source of stabilised hypochlorous acid for the CBA, which is a no rinse chlorine based chemical steriliser (as near as damn it)

Washing Soda / percarbonate based compound for general cleaning
Caustic Soda for heavy duty cleaning

Videne / peracetic acid for bug killing.

One reason for using separate ones is that I can clean at one time, and then 'sterilise' when I want to use it, and no rinse cause I'm lazy, and it speeds things up

AnthonyUK

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by AnthonyUK » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:08 pm

When talking about brewing I think you should avoid using 'sterilisation'. This is the advise given by Palmer/Zainasheff in their podcast on this topic - http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469
Sterilisation is almost not attainable or is necessary. Sanitisation is a more appropriate term, technically at least.

boingy

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by boingy » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:18 pm

AnthonyUK wrote:When talking about brewing I think you should avoid using 'sterilisation'. This is the advise given by Palmer/Zainasheff in their podcast on this topic - http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469
Sterilisation is almost not attainable or is necessary. Sanitisation is a more appropriate term, technically at least.
Please don't re-open that old debate in this thread.
There was already enough "discussion" about it here:

www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35774

That thread took a bit of damage when some posts were removed but there are still plenty of opinions in there. Feel free to re-ignite that thread!

kane

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by kane » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:26 pm

Thanks for the quick replies guys,

So at the minute my youngs cleaner/steriliser (most convenient for me to buy at the moment) costs about 6p a litre.

How does something like soda/sodium percarbonate + starsan/peracetic acid compare in price?
(Also if i bought something like ecover 100% sodium percarbonate, how much would i need to use for cleaning purposes?)

Aleman,
You say you clean at one time and sterilise when needed.
So for example could i clean my fermenters after use and store them (in a cleanish place) and then simply spray with starsan etc a few weeks later when needed?
That would save an awful lot of time on brewday!

Cheers
Kane

boingy

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by boingy » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:33 pm

Yeah, you don;t need to sanitise until you are about to use it. Store your equipment clean and dry. If it is truly clean then there is nothing for bacteria to feed on. I store my stuff in the garage. Before use it gets a quick hose down inside and out to remove dust and then gets sanitised.

AnthonyUK

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by AnthonyUK » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:35 pm

boingy wrote:
AnthonyUK wrote:When talking about brewing I think you should avoid using 'sterilisation'. This is the advise given by Palmer/Zainasheff in their podcast on this topic - http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469
Sterilisation is almost not attainable or is necessary. Sanitisation is a more appropriate term, technically at least.
Please don't re-open that old debate in this thread.
There was already enough "discussion" about it here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35774

That thread took a bit of damage when some posts were removed but there are still plenty of opinions in there. Feel free to re-ignite that thread!
Thanks boingy,
I hadn't seen that thread but will have a read through but believe that clear definitions of terminology are necessary to avoid confusion.
edit -
Having read through I'll agree not to re-open the debate as I can't see why there was one to start with :mrgreen:
I will stick to sanitise.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... Sanitation

kane

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by kane » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:14 pm

Cheers boingy,

So peracetic acid can be bought from TMM for £5, this should make around 50x250ml spray bottles?
How much equipment can be treated with 250ml of spray? (e.g. how many fermenters/bottles? on average)

How do you go about treating taps etc, just squirt it in and hope it gets in all the cracks? or submerge them in solution?

Sorry for all the questions.

Kane

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Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by Aleman » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:18 pm

AnthonyUK wrote:
boingy wrote:
AnthonyUK wrote:When talking about brewing I think you should avoid using 'sterilisation'. This is the advise given by Palmer/Zainasheff in their podcast on this topic - http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/469
Sterilisation is almost not attainable or is necessary. Sanitisation is a more appropriate term, technically at least.
Please don't re-open that old debate in this thread.
There was already enough "discussion" about it here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35774

That thread took a bit of damage when some posts were removed but there are still plenty of opinions in there. Feel free to re-ignite that thread!
Thanks boingy,
I hadn't seen that thread but will have a read through but believe that clear definitions of terminology are necessary to avoid confusion.
edit -
Having read through I'll agree not to re-open the debate as I can't see why there was one to start with :mrgreen:
I will stick to sanitise.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... Sanitation
Oh Go On :D

I'm with Graham actually and sanitation is what the bin men do with the refuse lorry

What we actually do is disinfect :=P

Peracetic acid and hypochlorous acid are damned effective chemical sterilisers though ;) (Regardless of waht palmer and Zainasheff say) . . .although I will admit that we are really not looking for sterilisation for general brewing situations . . . yeast culture is much different

kane

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by kane » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:22 pm

(Not wanting to further the debate .... :lol: )

But i used the term sterilisation as, in my mind at least, in a perfect world that is what we would try to achieve, and makes it clearer that you are talking about trying to kill bacteria etc rather than simply clean crud off.
(Also sanitising to me suggests simply making clean :=P )

Edit: Also can you use peracetic acid with normal tap water? is it just star san you need to worry about having magic water?

Kane

boingy

Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by boingy » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:40 pm

kane wrote:Cheers boingy,

So peracetic acid can be bought from TMM for £5, this should make around 50x250ml spray bottles?
How much equipment can be treated with 250ml of spray? (e.g. how many fermenters/bottles? on average)

How do you go about treating taps etc, just squirt it in and hope it gets in all the cracks? or submerge them in solution?

Sorry for all the questions.

Kane
Can't help you with the peracetic. I've never used it. I make up 5 litres of Videne and swill it round a few times at 5 minute intervals. I can't stress enough the importance of clean. If the stuff is clean then the choice of sanitiser is less of an issue.

Taps I am a bit sloppy with. After fermentation the tap gets a cursory wipe with a Videne soaked cloth. The first half pint or so through the tap is discarded, mostly because it is yeasty but also because that's the bit most likely to collect any nasties on the way out. The next litre goes into a bottle that becomes my "how is the beer doing?" monitor and the rest goes into two cornies. The tap gets hosed through and has soda solution run through it a few times but I never remove or dismantle it for cleaning. Others are more conscientious in this area. The ultimate is a stainless tap that comes completely apart for cleaning. They ain't cheap, and even if I had one I would probably be too lazy to dismantle it each time.


@Aleman: I knew you wouldn't be able to resist, yer git!

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Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by Aleman » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:35 pm

boingy wrote:@Aleman: I knew you wouldn't be able to resist, yer git!
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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Re: Cleaners/Sterilisers/Sanitisers Confusion

Post by TC2642 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:39 pm

I use bleach for cleaning and Sod. met for sterilisation purposes, although it's also useful in neutralising the chlorine in bleach.
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