Beyond CRS?

[Kev888]

I'm running out of CRS, and before I get some more thought I should consider if its still the best thing for me to be using. It does work 'very' well to get the mash PH right, and as a definate non-chemist I find it very easy and reliable: enough CRS for the total akalinity wanted + campden tablets in the HLT and then a bit of gypsum in the mash and boil; job done and all seems well. But I'm aware that experts tend to ballance not only the PH but also the type of salts etc used to achieve this.

To be honest I don't really understand all the salts etc so i'm not sure if I want to add any further complication over and above the PH, but I thought I should ask in case. Is there 'much' to be gained by using more custom-formulated water additions, and if so what are the key things I should consider?

Cheers
Kev

[sladeywadey]

I've recently stopped using CRS as I wanted to see if making a brew without CRS would make much difference as I've been getting some odd tastes. I have been trying the 'Wheeler' method by boiling the water for 30 mins the night before, with adding sufficient calcium back, then racking off. The last two brews I've made I would say they are better tasting but I've yet to prove this is down to non-CRS usage.

You may find this thread useful: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14753

How much CRS have you been using? IE what is your CAC03 for your water?

[Kev888]

Ah thats interesting, thanks! I never thought to read Graham's book - maybe I'd understand his version of it! Though that said, I do larger volumes and only have the one element so it'd add hours to my preparation time to bring it all to the boil - probably not something I'd want to do 'unless' there were real benefits over bunging a bit of CRS in.

My water's total alkalinity changes but its often around 130 CaCO3 so its easy enough to adjust for PH. Say I wanted to reduce that to 20 CaCO3 for a pale ale, I'd add about 85ml CRS to 125L water.

Cheers
Kev

[Aleman]

I use either sulphuric or hydrochloric acids depending on where I want to put the taste profile . . . That's when I actually have to lower the alkalinity, normally I actually have to do the opposite.

[Kev888]

Ah yes, thats the sort of thing I'd heard people doing.

Cheers
Kev

[EoinMag]

I use either sulphuric or hydrochloric acids depending on where I want to put the taste profile . . . That's when I actually have to lower the alkalinity, normally I actually have to do the opposite.

Can you explain the difference in one over the other?

What taste profile do you get from each?

I understand CRS is a mix of both no? Also where do you get the acids and how do you calculate how much to use, or are you going on molarity and a little more than a passing knowledge of chemistry?

[Aleman]

I use either sulphuric or hydrochloric acids depending on where I want to put the taste profile . . . That's when I actually have to lower the alkalinity, normally I actually have to do the opposite.

Can you explain the difference in one over the other?

Sulphuric adds sulphate ions, and hydrochloric add chloride ions . . . in addition to the hydrogen ions that affect the mash pH.

What taste profile do you get from each?

Sulphate accentuates the hop bitterness, and chloride the mouth/palate fullness and the malt profile. So for a beer like a pilsner which is highly hopped but does not have a harsh bitterness I would use hydrochloric acid to reduce the alkalinity and calcium chloride to increase the calcium content . . . not wanting to add any sulphate at all. OTOH for a pale ale I would use sulphuric acid and a mixture of gypsum and calcium chloride to get a sulphate to chloride ratio of 2 or 3 to 1

I understand CRS is a mix of both no?

it is and should give a sulphate to chloride ratio of 2:1 . . . which may not be desired in some beers.

Also where do you get the acids and how do you calculate how much to use, or are you going on molarity and a little more than a passing knowledge of chemistry?

I get the acids made up for my by She who is a chemistry teacher , and I work out how much to use (Based on the molarities - 2M for Hydrochloric and 1M for sulphuric which is a diprotic acid) from a spreadsheet that WallyBrew prepared for me (Which I will turn into a php web page for the calculators section when I finally have time). I chose 2 Molar and 1 Molar as suitable for the water that I am treating, waters with a higher alkalinity than mine will probably need stronger solutions otherwise the amounts of acid to use becomes a little excessive.

[Kev888]

Excellent, thank you. It sounds fairly complex to judge (assuming you can get hold of the acids) but at least I now understand what I was asking

Cheers
kev

[sladeywadey]

one of the reasons I've stopped using CRS is I've been wondering about the extra sulphate it is adding.

The sulphate in my water is already 70 mg/l. I think I've also been compounding this by adding the usual '1xtsp gypsum in the mash and 1xtsp gypsum in the boil' and with the CRS adding sulphate also to reduce alkalinity from 220 CAC03, maybe this is why I am getting a harsh bitterness?

sound plausible?

Can I add calcium chloride instead of gypsum?

[sllimeel]

one of the reasons I've stopped using CRS is I've been wondering about the extra sulphate it is adding.

The sulphate in my water is already 70 mg/l. I think I've also been compounding this by adding the usual '1xtsp gypsum in the mash and 1xtsp gypsum in the boil' and with the CRS adding sulphate also to reduce alkalinity from 220 CAC03, maybe this is why I am getting a harsh bitterness?

sound plausible?

Can I add calcium chloride instead of gypsum?

I too have been fighting sourness in my brews. I have lowered the amount of CRS and this has made a big improvement BUT it's not perfect yet, maybe the salts need to be looked at.

[Graham]

I understand CRS is a mix of both no?

it is and should give a sulphate to chloride ratio of 2:1 . . . which may not be desired in some beers.

Closer to 1:1 in equivalence terms.

[jmc]

one of the reasons I've stopped using CRS is I've been wondering about the extra sulphate it is adding.

The sulphate in my water is already 70 mg/l. I think I've also been compounding this by adding the usual '1xtsp gypsum in the mash and 1xtsp gypsum in the boil' and with the CRS adding sulphate also to reduce alkalinity from 220 CAC03, maybe this is why I am getting a harsh bitterness?

sound plausible?

Can I add calcium chloride instead of gypsum?

I too have been fighting sourness in my brews. I have lowered the amount of CRS and this has made a big improvement BUT it's not perfect yet, maybe the salts need to be looked at.

Chalky land around here so water high in carbonate (hardness as calcium carbonate 330mg/l) plus highish sulphate (122) & chloride (70) too.

I have trouble treating water for brews with low sulphate requirement eg Pilsners etc. I've been wondering about using lactic acid and maybe acidulated malt.
Could this replace CRS or is it only possible to use this if you don't have very hard water.