Inspired by Orval & Bringing Belgian Brett into my Brewery

[leedsbrew]

Well done matey! Very well deserved after my sample of it!

[mysterio]

Awesome result!!

[lancsSteve]

43 points out of 50 making it "Excellent" and one point off of Outstanding - well pleased.

[bosium]

Excellent work Steve, can't wait to try mine.

[Laripu]

lancsSteve, I like the pics and recipe. Good work. Oh and the name too!

[DeGarre]

Well done, Steve. Interesting thread.

Would it work to just pour in the dregs straight from Orval bottle and not to culture?

I usually bottle from the primary - should I pour in the dregs with the yeast, or later at the bottling?

Lastly, I use a plastic FV - can I later get rid off the Brett in the FV, or should that FV then be dedicated to only Belgian funky ales?

Cheers

[greenxpaddy]

Most brewers would not chance contaminating their equipment. I wouldn't.

[lancsSteve]

Well done, Steve. Interesting thread.

Would it work to just pour in the dregs straight from Orval bottle and not to culture?

Well Orval use a more normal strain for their primary (which is shared with other loccal breweries such as La Rulles and Lion a Plume. So getting say WLP550 (achouffe) would be a good primary strain. Then you could add the dregs at bottling stage and allow the brett to slowly go to work. I don't think culturing up the orval dregs would necessarily work as a primary strain as their primary yeast has been removed.

Else wait till May and get the bastogne strain when malt miller has it in again.

I usually bottle from the primary - should I pour in the dregs with the yeast, or later at the bottling?

If you want to do an Orval styl;e beer I'd ferment primary with a fairly normal yeast rack to secondary and dry hop and add the dregs there for a couple of weeks then bottle from secondary.

Lastly, I use a plastic FV - can I later get rid off the Brett in the FV, or should that FV then be dedicated to only Belgian funky ales?

Cheers

I've kept the kit separate and marked - it's a good use for an old FV you;re retiring I DEFINITELY wouldn't mix up bottling kit as you;re asking for trouble with a cheap bottling stick you can't clean properly to infect every bottled beer afterwards. So I'd recommend getting a new plastic fermenter and taking an old one as your secondary / primary for anything funky and a parallel bottling kit or get a cheap 2nd hand FV. Good sanitation should clean it all up fine between brews but risks seem high.

[lancsSteve]

Most brewers would not chance contaminating their equipment. I wouldn't.

That's why I maintain a separate set all marked for this - why risk a mix?

Not had any brett infection probs since though. I'm dilifgent on bleach cleaning the bottles and then hitting with sodium met (camden tablets) afterwqards as well so thay're proper cleaned rather than usual rinse, drain, star san for less funky beers.

[pantsmachine]

Most brewers would not chance contaminating their equipment. I wouldn't.

Sorry, can't agree with you on this one. We all 'contaminate' the post boil equipment every time we brew. Then we kill it with bleach or heat during the clean up and pre-brew routine. I use the same set of equipment for brett and non brett beers. Its only a racking cane and tube and an FV, oh aye and the bottles. These are all easily sterilised together in a normal plastic fv. I will of course change my tune utterly when all my bottles blow up but that's not happened yet.

All i'm saying is that its no big deal and people shouldn't let it put them off trying it. Words like 'risk' and 'contamination' can do that to people! Each to their own of course but Brett's fun not something to be feart of!

For the record, i recirculate my HLT contents through my bottling tube. As a result it sees 80C for a half hour and i do use a glass FV for Brett beers not my main plastic conical FV but that's due to volume differences and tying up A FV for a long time on secondary. In fact i'll just go and get my coat.......

[lancsSteve]

Most brewers would not chance contaminating their equipment. I wouldn't.

Sorry, can't agree with you on this one. We all 'contaminate' the post boil equipment every time we brew. Then we kill it with bleach or heat during the clean up and pre-brew routine. I use the same set of equipment for brett and non brett beers. Its only a racking cane and tube and an FV, oh aye and the bottles. These are all easily sterilised together in a normal plastic fv. I will of course change my tune utterly when all my bottles blow up but that's not happened yet.

All i'm saying is that its no big deal and people shouldn't let it put them off trying it. Words like 'risk' and 'contamination' can do that to people! Each to their own of course but Brett's fun not something to be feart of!

For the record, i recirculate my HLT contents through my bottling tube. As a result it sees 80C for a half hour and i do use a glass FV for Brett beers not my main plastic conical FV but that's due to volume differences and tying up A FV for a long time on secondary. In fact i'll just go and get my coat.......

Interesting view and very pragmatic/sensible (and refreshing to hear a less panicky YOU'LL BE DOOOMED voice of experience!). Recirculating HLT through bottling cane is an interesting idea will have to figure if I can sort something like that out. Really I need a better tap as my current setup is a little heath robinson with too many joins for things to hide in for me not to keep it separate.

[Manx Guy]

Hi!

A interesting and enlightening thread with some good comments from ' both sides of the fence'...

I had the pleasure of tasting some of Steves brews at a recent NCB meeting and his chat about saisons and other similar styles opened my eyes to the worlds of possibility in 'home brewing'...

I think i have a way to go yet before I think about trying somehitng like this, I'm still cutting my teeth in AG so to speak although I've done lagers and grown my own hops etc. So it could be said that I've passed a few milestones in my AG career...

AG#:13 (Kolsch) is on today and posts like this and a nice relaxed brew day remind me why I stuck with this 'hobby'...

My Belgian Pale ale will be consumed at Fridays Poker night after receiving favourable reviews from my poker mates at a recent early tasting...

However as good a beer as Saison and lambic styles are I don't think all of them are ready for these yet...
Maybe its a journey we can all go on together!

@LS I'll no doubt see you at the end of March and I'll have plenty of brews for you to try then (Bringing the car this time) !

Cheers!

Guy

[greenxpaddy]

I'm sure you could completely clean your equipment afterwards. ( I personally at this stage do not have the burning desire to add such a PITA to an already strict cleaning process). Remember though its not just on your equipment. By breeding such a large culture of Brett in one place the spores will be far more dense in your brewing environment on all surfaces, carried by air, than someone who does not use Brett. Consequently you do whether you like it or not have more Brett spores which could land in your everyday brews....

Just like radiation doses you are not guaranteed to get cancer from it even with higher doses but you are statistically at greater risk

[pantsmachine]

I'm sure you could completely clean your equipment afterwards. ( I personally at this stage do not have the burning desire to add such a PITA to an already strict cleaning process). Remember though its not just on your equipment. By breeding such a large culture of Brett in one place the spores will be far more dense in your brewing environment on all surfaces, carried by air, than someone who does not use Brett. Consequently you do whether you like it or not have more Brett spores which could land in your everyday brews....

Just like radiation doses you are not guaranteed to get cancer from it even with higher doses but you are statistically at greater risk

Absolutely wrong and panic mongering. Sorry but it is

Brett Clausenii that we use doesn't spore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

Brett Dekkera does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces_Claussenii

Sterilisation is sterilisation(i just tried saying that 3 times, tounge twister)! Brett C is just another yeast. I culture Brett C in an Erlenmeyer flask because it looks cool and i like scientific glassware. It stays in the flask and it gets pitched into the beer i want it to. I also culture my other yeasts in the same flask. The flask gets either a going over with thin bleach/water solution or freshly boiled water depending on what i am doing at the time. Either one will kill Brett C. I don't think beyond that because i don't need to.

I try and avoid FV lid off for extended periods in Summertime when all the plants are releasing as that is sporing time to me and i would be more likely to get an unknown in the FV then. Airlocks and lids stop 99.whatever% of the nasties. The rest i rely on my 2 1/2 gallon builders bucket of thin bleach/water solution and clean soaked cloth as i go through my brew day.

You can read brewing books that will speak about how hardy Brett C is and that its a PITA in wineries and its alive in the soil in the vineyard. All good stuff but lets see it survive about 40 degrees C! The wineries don't like it because they are generally using survivable temperatures throughout their processes and have vast amounts of money sitting in their barrels which are themselves breeding grounds for Brett. We don't generally use barrels or blend our beers and we can use higher temps at more times through our process.

Look, this is a classic discussion, you think you are right and i think i am right. Both of us think we have valid points. I DO see you point that you are not comfortable with Brett's and with your experience to date you would rather err on the side of caution. Sensible and admirable but spreading disinformation is best left to the government, they do it better and get paid for it.

Lets leave it at that and the guys who are thinking about using Brett can read and make their own decisions from there?

An interesting article, bear in mind its from the wine side and some of their misgivings don't apply to breweries! Many of the points on flavour and mouthfell DO cross over in particular with regard to Belgian style beers.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _n6245126/

ManxGuy. Belgian beers are fun to make and the results are as good and satisfying it gets for my humble taste buds. Proper 'I brewed that moments'!

I bottled 4 gallons of brett'd Belgian style beer on Xmas eve. The original recipe is below. Nothing fancy and aimed in the general direction of Belgian Golden Ale style The original and most basic of the 3 versions turned out beautifully. The base beer finished at 1.010 (Duvel/Chimay yeast split). The 4 gallon batch had Brett C introduced at 1.034. I will be trying a side by side comparison between the Mk1 & Brett'd Mk2 version when i get home this week.

Quad B Base beer 16 gallon batch
8kgs Marris Otter
4 kgs Munich
2kgs Wheat malt
1 kg torrified wheat
150 grammes oats
7 oz FWH Cascade hops
Duvel/Chimay cultured yeast 50/50split 2nd generation.

LancSteve,
Have you tried brewing a Kwak Style yet? I was drinking that in Italy a few Months ago and couldn't believe just how good it was. That's on my to do list along with a massive NZ hop based IPA and an aChouffe style beer. If i can brew those three only this year i will be happy!

[lancsSteve]

Brett Clausenii that we use doesn't spore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces

Brett Dekkera does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces_Claussenii

And Brettanomyces bruxellensis?

Not a massive fan of Kwak at last taste - found it too sweet...

I'm wondering what will happen to my de dolle recultured big brown belgian beer - they used to use rodenbach strain so could be quite funky in a few months!