newb questions - beer engine, crushed malt etc

[simon50]

please could someone help?

i have only done canned kits previously and have been using caramalt in a muslin bag to add flavour to my kits.

i have no knowledge or equipment to mash / sparge any grain.

if i were to do a extract brew, is it only the caramalts that can be used for steeping in this way? or can other types of crushed malt be used also?

also, if you are only steeping grain in a mulsin bag in water, does this provide you with a usable amount of sugars, or just flavour ?

(if i steep caramalt and punch the grammages into beer engine, will it "assume" i am mashing/sparging and give me a increased ABV ?)

thanks

[Jocky]

Extract is basically what you've been getting in the cans of your kits, but plain extract is unhopped, so most of the same rules apply.

Caramalt, crystal, black malt, chocolate malt, carapils can all just be steeped - there's more like this too, see here for a full reference: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malts_Chart

These grains do release some sugar from steeping, the amount varies by your steeping technique, but as the grain is such a small amount of your overall grain bill (5-10%) you don't need to worry about that as it will only shift your gravity by a point or two.

Not sure about beer engine - but as long as you're not sticking loads of grain into your recipe it's not going to make much difference whether to the final product.

[simon50]

thank you very much for the link!,

i was asking about the sugars released, for using that wort for boiling hops (which i did do previously for kits), is it enough sugars for extracting hop oils effectively? or should i be adding spraymalt to get the "wort" upto 1.020 or something ?

thanks!

[Jocky]

The general process is that you add the spraymalt to either cold or hot water before you get to the boil.

But... I don't believe that you need any sugar in the water to extract hop oils (I could be wrong on this).

Some people boil their hops with half the malt and half the amount of water, and then add the rest of the water/malt in the fermenter. Personally I only do small batches, so I boil the lot.

[simon50]

thanks

it looks like "i'm gonna need a bigger pan"

i read somewhere that you do need sugars to extract (i think it must have been aroma oils, with "oil" not being soluble in water).

conversely bitterness efficiency goes down the higher the gravity of wort you are boiling in ...apparently

i was planning on mixing the majority of spraymalt in a fv, then adding hop/crushed malt wort on top of that, i'm trying to keep the quantity of boiled on the stove liquid down, hence all the questions.

thanks again.

[Jocky]

i read somewhere that you do need sugars to extract (i think it must have been aroma oils, with "oil" not being soluble in water).

As I said, I'm not sure - would be interested to know more.

conversely bitterness efficiency goes down the higher the gravity of wort you are boiling in ...apparently

That is the conventional wisdom, but some people are questioning that now (saying there's no relation), others are suggesting that it's part of the equation, but not the whole of it (they suggest the precipitated solids - such as hot break - pull the alpha acids that provide bitterness out of suspension, reducing the bitterness. So higher gravity -> more solids -> less hop utilisation). Personally I'm not at the stage where I'm that bothered about it - first time I make a recipe my ingredients go into Beersmith and I adjust until I'm happy. After tasting the finished beer I adjust the recipe based upon mine and other's feedback and go again.

i was planning on mixing the majority of spraymalt in a fv, then adding hop/crushed malt wort on top of that, i'm trying to keep the quantity of boiled on the stove liquid down, hence all the questions.

A reduced boil volume will also reduce hop utilisation. Check your brewing software adjusts for that (it should do). You can reduce the quantity you boil, but you will need to add more hops that you would use for a full volume boil.

[simon50]

i've been using beer engine 1.09, had you not pointed that out, i would have never in a million years noticed but hop utilisation does change with brew volume,

ALSO, utilisation changes with gravity; baring in mind what you have told me :/

i'll try have a look for the oils > sugar thing, i can't remember if someone told me it or if i have any reference material.

[Jocky]

ALSO, utilisation changes with gravity; baring in mind what you have told me :/

Wait until I tell you that that alpha acid in hops degrades after they're picked, and so your packet of hops will in reality have a lower AA% than stated on the pack (and will degrade faster once opened).

In reality though... I wouldn't sweat it right now. Follow a recipe that has good feedback on it and rely on your and others tastebuds for feedback. Worry about the complicated stuff after a few brews.

[simon50]

hehe, yes, running before walking, loud and clear.

thanks for all your help though!, at least now i won't be making 4 IBU 6 % donkey piss

[Jocky]

You might still do that. We all occasionally still brew something that tastes like donkey piss. Even the pros do it.

[Jocky]

i'll try have a look for the oils > sugar thing, i can't remember if someone told me it or if i have any reference material.

I found something that explains this!

http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/02/2 ... additions/

[simon50]

"The sugars and enzymes in the extract aid in extracting alpha acids (bitterness) from the hops. Boiling hops with a small amount of extract will result in smoother hop flavors and appropriate bitterness that you can’t achieve with plain water alone"

i'm confused , how can you have "appropriate bitterness" ? as opposed to just plain bitterness and also how do you get "smoother flavours" (as opposed to a "more flavour").

surely either "stuff" from the hops goes "into the sugar", or it doesn't, and if so, why would the description be so vague ?

thanks!

[Jocky]

Welcome to brewing! With 7000 years of history and practice and only a few years of science there's plenty of vagueness and mythology around traditional techiniques.

I have no idea. A brief Google found someone that tried it and said their beer came out disgustingly grassy, but that's it.