Selling your brews!

[Finlay]

I hadn't considered a half way house.

My plan is to grow into something that will ultimately pay the bills, but a premesis move is likely before that happens due to size and water management constraints. I'm just starting out on this plan, and I need to demonstrate I can control my own processes first before contemplating selling anything. On this point I witnessed my worst ever brewing disaster today when a plastic cask filled with my new porter recipie blew it's shive out in my utility - I only brought it in from the garage to keep it warm for a week before conditioning out in the cool. It appears that I need to re-paint the walls, and the ceiling! I can't believe how understanding my wife was! She was in the kitchen at the time and heard the bang followed by the fire-hose gushing sound. Apparently (I was at work) she and my eldest son were trying to contain the gallons of beer with a pile of dirty laundry while my youngest son was trying to stop the dog from drinking it all! The shive (purchased specifically for the plastic casks and only available in boxes of 250 I might add!) was eventually found in the kitchen - it must have richocheted off something to get in there! I'll laugh at it later on I'm sure, but losing a cask's worth of almost finished beer is still too painful to think about.

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes; at this early stage, talking to the local authorities seems too early, but I can't get through 100's of litres of beer without giving it away or selling for cost price to friends etc (and I really don't want to spray it everywhere again). I imagine that the greater of the misdemeanors would be not paying duty on the relatively tiny amounts brewed during this experimental phase so just registering as a brewery might be a reasonable compromise, while leaving involving the local authorities until a future time when you are preparing to sell commercially.

[critch]

i take it its a brewery plastics shive?(same as the old tc plastics ones), theyre crap for those casks .....lob em over a hedge and get the rankin evo band c's

ive had a few of em burst out.... went to the rankin ones and never really had too much of an issue again

[bigdave]

I don't know if this will directly answer any questions but thought it might be helpful

I've been working with a 'nano brewery' over the past 6 months on their printed materials and one issue they've had was demand for their ales for off-sales. They've already had to upscale the brewery and move premises once this financial year to meet demand for their casks and they simply cant afford the extra expense of bottling. So rather than disappoint the locals, they've started supplying a couple of off-licenses with casks of their ales and the offy's are selling the beers in 4 pint plastic carry kegs:



First registered brewery:


New brew house:

[Finlay]

thant's a nice looking brewery - thanks for sharing the pictures.
Continuing the discussion about selling your own brews, I have found a few places selling relatively cheap brown bottles 1000 at a time, but I have no idea whether they are suitable for bottle conditioning. I wonder, are there any specific guidelines for weights of bottle to use for bottle conditioned beer that is for public sale? I'm thinking in terms of safety re. exploding bottles etc.
thanks again for the replies.

[critch]

if its a pallet of beatson clark bottles theyll be fine, theyre one use only but plenty strong enough for bottle conditioning

[Scooby]

On this point I witnessed my worst ever brewing disaster today when a plastic cask filled with my new porter recipie blew it's shive out in my utility - I only brought it in from the garage to keep it warm for a week before conditioning out in the cool. It appears that I need to re-paint the walls, and the ceiling! I can't believe how understanding my wife was! She was in the kitchen at the time and heard the bang followed by the fire-hose gushing sound. Apparently (I was at work) she and my eldest son were trying to contain the gallons of beer with a pile of dirty laundry while my youngest son was trying to stop the dog from drinking it all!

I've bee reading recently about the Meux's brewery disaster in the early 1800's. Porter was in it's heyday, it was matured in large vats and the London breweries competed with each other
to produce the largest, which was 20,000bbl or 720,000 gals. A vat sprung a leak and 7,600bbl - 273,600gals of Porter was suddenly released causing much damage at the brewery,
flooded neighbouring houses killing 8 people.

[dynamic dave]

Did the 8 people die of alcohol poisoning.

[alix101]

I wouldn't of made it out either, had it been an ipa I would of drank the lot.

[themadhippy]

I wouldn't of made it out either

id have made it out sevral times,after all its bloody hard work trying to drink with a full bladder

[Scooby]

Not sure but I think most of the fatalities were kids killed in the rush to get at the beer

[asd]

FYI, I will be retiring in the next year or two, and I have been thinking along similar lines, and wrote to the planners:-

THEIR REPLY

"Thank you for your enquiry concerning the above premises and the use of your garage as a microbrewery. My apologies for the delay in responding to you, we have been experiencing high volumes of work with the end of the financial year, but I hope this delay has not inconvenienced you too much.

In relation to your enquiry in the first instance I would need to assess whether planning permission would be needed at all. Some activities can be undertaken in planning terms as being incidental to the enjoyment of the main dwelling on the site, as any hobby would be. When this hobby becomes more of a commercial operation planning permission may be needed, but this is dependent on the scale and nature of the use. (My italics)

To help me respond to whether planning permission is needed would you be able to answer the following questions for me?

- what would be the likely number of collections and deliveries per week from the site in relation to goods to be sold, deliveries of supplies and collection of trade waste?
- would there be any access for the public to this site for sales on site?
- would there be any advertising on the garage indicating there is a business on the site?
- would all brewing materials and equipment be within the garage or would the land around the garage and in the garden be used on a permanent basis?
- how many people would be working on the site at any one time?

These questions will help me to assess the scale of the proposed use. The lower the scale and intensity of the use the less likely permission would be needed.

Once I have received a response from you on this matter I can go on to provide further advice on the likelihood of permission being granted, the relevant planning policies and how to apply.

As the area is mainly residential I would have some concerns at an intensive commercial use on the site, but perhaps if you can provide answers to the above first this will help to see what needs to be done next.

I hope you find this advice of assistance. However, please remember that the advice given in this letter is based on the information submitted, a full planning history has not been researched and is the opinion of the case officer and cannot in any way prejudice the decision made on a formal planning application(s)"

MY REPLY

I wrote back saying I wanted to make 100gallons a week:

" - Thank you very much for getting back to me. Your reply is very helpful.

As far as answers to your questions go,

" what would be the likely number of collections and deliveries per week from the site in relation to goods to be sold, deliveries of supplies and collection of trade waste?
- would there be any access for the public to this site for sales on site?
- would there be any advertising on the garage indicating there is a business on the site?
- would all brewing materials and equipment be within the garage or would the land around the garage and in the garden be used on a permanent basis?
- how many people would be working on the site at any one time?"

I would estimate, given the small scale of production I am thinking of ( about 100 gallons a week), that I would need 75 - 100Kg of malt a week, which is 3 to 4 sacks, which is one small vehicle per week for deliveries. This would consume about 1 Kg of hops, which would come in 5kg bags, via parcel post to the main house. Other sundries would be needed.

100 gallons would be enough to fill 11 firkins, ( which is the size of barrel you see outside most pubs ) or the equivalent in bottles. These would need to be delivered, and I would guess that would take a few journies in a small vehicle.

I'm not sure about trade waste. The spent malt would be the most significant.

I have no plans for public access

I have no plans for advertising on or around the building

All brewing materials would be kept in the garage, although I could keep the malt in an adjacent shed, which would mean I could store sufficient for a few weeks there, and cut down on deliveries. The hard standing in front of the garage - which is shielded from the road by a pair of 6 foot high solid gates, and on either side bu a high hedge/fence would be used at times for general washing of equipment, etc.

There would generally only be me working on the site, although I am sure that from time to time, friends and relatives would come along to lend a hand. I don't imagine I'll be doing this full time.

I hope this is helpful. I look forward to your reply."


PLANNERS RESPONSE

"Thank you for this additional information. Based on the information you have given below you would not in my opinion need planning permission as the use would not be to a level that was intensive enough to lead to a change of use. The scale of what you are proposing to do would not be that significantly different from a hobby. If the way you want to operate this ever changes you may need planning permission, at which time I would encourage you to contact the Planning department and we can provide further advice.

At present though, based on this information there would not be a material change of use in my opinion, and so planning permission would not be required."

MY THOUGHTS

So, that is a "back of the envelope" scheme, which indicates that the planning hurdle can be jumped (or avoided)if things are on a small scale- although things may vary from planning area to planning area.

The next thing is, to talk to food hygiene - I imagine I will need to line the floors and walls.

Also I would use a steam trap to keep smells (sorry - aromas) down - I want to give as little cause for upset to the neighbours in case I do decide to go bigger. In point of fact, the ones I've mentioned it to appear delighted!

I don't know if putting 600 litres or so of water a week down the drain would be a big issue - anyone have any thoughts?

I've a grandiose plan to burn the spent malt in a small scale gasifier and use the heat to begin to raise the temp of my HLT.

None of this will probably ever happen, but half the fun is in the dreaming!

Simon.

Simon.

[coatesg]

I think if you run a business that flushes any effluent down the drain, you need to change your terms with the water company (but, I don't think the cost of waste license is that high). You could just not mention it, but you might be in for a hard time later if they find out.

[boingy]

Despite their reputation, the planners are usually reasonable folk and usually respond well to questions. The same applies to HMRC. I registered a business at my home address and, just like your reply, their main concern was how much extra traffic there would be. Neighbours don't care what you are doing unless it causes noise, smells or extra inconvenience for them in the form of vans/people or unsightly stuff like a big piles of casks or rubbish. Food hygiene is one area where I have heard tales of great differences in requirements.

I think beer is considered a low risk foodstuff so the rules can be quite relaxed but some folk apply stricter rules than are necessary. I've heard of breweries having to have washable everything and others who brew in cowsheds/barns with bare concrete floors and bare breeze-block walls.

Keeping the smells down is definitely a good idea. Many people like the smell of malt but the smell of the boil can be really objectionable. Rather than do anything fancy with the spent malt, find a local pig or chicken farm that will pay you for it. I don't know how much but they will pay. Spent hops can go to your local allotment society for compost.

So just do it. Don't expect it to make you rich and don't be surprised if you spend most of your time selling and distributing the beer rather than brewing it!

[scott78]

so far no mention of the local licencing authority, if you plan to sell in non wholesale amounts i think you would need a premises licence and a personal licence (both of which require a donation to the local council) just thought i would add another hoop to the many we have to jump through

[Crispy Hedgehog]

Also no mention of the dreaded HMRC wanting their payment for Alcohol Duty - see the thread in the Tap Room on the Jubilee Beer by Orlando. But just so you are aware:

This is from the HMRC website as of 26 Mar 12:

Rate £ per hectolitre (100 litres in volume) per cent of alcohol in the beer
Beer - General Beer Duty £19.51
Beer - High Strength: Exceeding 7.5% abv -in addition to the General Beer Duty £4.88
Beer - Lower Strength: Exceeding 1.2% - not exceeding 2.8% abv £9.76