Suitable for Boiler?

[Fil]

all depends on the ferocity of the boil, an aggresive boil can flex a plastic container building up momentum if left unchecked, my 45l mango barrel will belly dance when on a 2 element boil and start rocking on its softened bottem..

[Kev888]

Polypropylene softens/weakens a lot less at boiling temperatures than HDPE (like used in the blue bins and mango tubs) so its reasonably thick (and it sounds like it is) then it could well work out in practice. It also deteriorates less over time/uses at heat, so if it works to begin with it should last quite a while - its what the commercial plastic boilers use.

But obviously the design/manufacture of the bin matters too, and whenever you go outside the manufacturer's recomendations/specs it cannot be guaranteed to be safe - its a risk some would take whilst others wouldn't. 'Hot fill' is a term meaning a hot liquid being added and allowed to cool rather than being sustained at that temperature for long periods, so I can see the manufacturer may hesitate to describe it as suitable for boiling. Its an interesting point about the eurocontainers though - i don't know if the manufacturers actually say they are safe or if thats just the retailer's interpretation; if they really are within spec then presumably they must be in a different class to your ebay one.

People on here tend to push boundaries more than manufacturers would and generally get away with it, its our right to choose after all, but there are mentions on here of plastic boilers having given way or deteriorated so it does happen (it happened to me, so thats partly why I'm more cautious about it than many on here). If you choose to try it, I'd suggest treat it like it 'may' go at any moment and keep yourself, kiddies etc safe - so that any accident would just be annoying rather than horrific.

Cheers
Kev

[kane]

Thanks guys,

I guess that is why I'm being so cautious, after reading stories like yours Kev.
At the minute i have to boil indoors with a small stockpot and create concentrated batches to dilute.
So I suppose the advantage of fitting an element to the bucket would be the ability to boil outside (and therefore render failure of the bucket 'less' of a hazard).

It becomes a bit of a gamble - the cheapness of the buckets versus the cost of failure.
At the minute i don't have the funds to go stainless (this whole thread would otherwise be pointless), so the cost of a bucket failure: £11 (bucket) + ~£7 (grain) + £time vs a 'trustworthy' bucket £25.
It does seem now worth getting the trusted buckets instead, but how would we have known otherwise!

I will cut a hole at the weekend for a tap, and measure the thickness before cutting a hole for the element.
I will also try filling with 15L boiling water (current pan capacity) and see how it feels. I think if any splitting/sagging did occur, it would probably be around the base, the upper rim is reinforced and seems pretty unbreakable to me.

Cheers,
Kane

[darkonnis]

Just something i wanted to through out there, I agree its most likely to go around the base or where you put fittings.
I was looking at the bigger plastic barrels and i reckon that by adding an insulative jacket (so you dont burn yourself and keep it insulated) and putting 2 or 3 of those belts round the outside that hold the jacket on, it would be a stark improvement on the basic boiler. Any thoughts on this? The big barrels aren't very much and ofc, taps/elements are all reusable so i had considered the idea as a precursor to any upscaling i might do when the time comes. You could just use a belt thats big enough and if it where me and i wasnt sure, i would just on the off chance. Find out if i actually like brewing on such a huge scale or not. Cause AG is way better than kit or BIAB, much easier than BIAB too, but i think there comes a point when you spend more time fussing because everything has to be perfect than actually enjoying what you're doing.

[Kev888]

Kane: Mine split from the hole I'd cut for the element so maybe I'd left a jagged edge, but it sounds thinner than yours is in any case. Its the HDPE (blue) barrels that tend to sag around the base more - PP doesn't really soften in the same way at that temperature, it can bulge a bit but its more a general floppiness if its too thin. I'd have been happier if the manufacturers hadn't come in with such a low rating, but if you can do so safely its probably worth a go - or you could just use it for another FV if you are in doubt.

Darkonnis: if you mean the blue HDPE barrels they are fairly popular, but keep in mind that HDPE isn't as good with heat so although its thicker you are still going past the manufacturers rating for use as boilers. The clamp top barrels are rated at a maximum of around 75c 'hot fill' - a temporary peak that will then be allowed to cool. As I mentioned I'm fairly cautious these days, others do it and there have only been some failures - I strongly suspect it depends on manufacturing variation between individual barrels when you get that far into the safety margins, so lots of people claim they're fine yet others have them sag and crack..

Cheers
Kev

[darkonnis]

might not work for a permenant solution but i reckon itll be fine for a while, people have used the big blue barrels and they're HDPE

[Kev888]

Yep, its those big blue HDPE barrels I was talking about - max 75c hot fill 'officially', but in practice they seem to work for most people who try them so your chances are good, especially short term.

A few haven't been up to it though, so its almost certainly down to manufacturing variation - most exceed the spec but some by not very much (and obviously, a sustained boil is very much beyond the spec). So in my view its best to ignore all those who infer that because 'their' barrel or 'most' barrels work they must all be fine, and instead test to see how the particular barrel you get performs. But take care of yourself while testing, I know a bit about materials and manufacturing tollerances, and personally going this far beyond the safe spec gives me the willys..

Cheers
Kev

[darkonnis]

Yeah sorry kev, didnt mean to make you repeat yourself, i got distracted and well, you get the picture.
Yeah, im wondering actually, if you could add material either side, like PP to "cover" the hole either side, so you'd have


Inside boiler>Element>PP sheet>Barrel side>PP>Element power supply

As you say, i had figured it would be where hte hole was that would cause the issue, if it where me, as i say i would definitely put it in a jacket with belts to support it. It works for those 1000L IBC pallets, they typically come with mesh round the outside to keep em strong and stop whatever is inside pushing against the sides too much. I appreciate they're not heated but i reckon it would still work, also, if you did get a "breach" it would stop boiling hot wort shooting out and would likely contain it to a small dribble, potentially saving you some burns.

[Fil]

I considered old cd's as a reasonable ridgid gasket material being polycarb they wont soften with heat, but bending them to the curve of my boiler defeated me.. the alternative of softening the barrel with heat to conform to the flat cd gaskets seemed a bit too extreme a solution prone to further failure.. with hdpe just accept a bit of bottom n tap sag.. its a feature of the material..

you can minimize tap sag by balancing the external tap weight with the internal syphon, but dont fit the syphon in hdpe til you have heated up the full boiler to a rolling boil and allowed the bottom to settle, otherwise it may be too long and push up against the fitting

to help maintain the top opening shape cut a hole in the lid and refit the lid.

[Kev888]

There was a chap (I forget who at the mo) who built a sort of wooden external support for their HDPE barrel, maybe a bit minimal for my taste but in concept it seems like a good move. The barrels are very tempting because they're cheap and come in bigger sizes than most other options so even with my cautious nature I've considered something similar in the past - I'd an idea for an outer wooden box and some sort of filler (squirty foam or concrete, maybe) cast between the two. But my situation is a bit different to yours, so I never tried it - I'm already a regular homebrewer so I was thinking really quite long term, and stainless won the argument there.

Cheers
Kev

[kane]

Ok guys, so after cutting the hole for the tap I thought sod it and cut the hole for the element as well (backer/haden? 2400W.

Its currently coming to the boil with ~30l water in it. 95C so far and doesnt seem any more flexible than when it was slightly warm.
The plastic was ~2mm so quite a bit thinner than the 3mm people state the eurocontainers are.

Edit:
Awaiting hop stopper:

Stainless tap:

[kane]

Holding a boil nicely now, not much give in the sides.

[darkonnis]

Jobs a gooden then! As Kev says, just be mindful that it could "go" and if its working well now you're probably set. Nice one!

[The_blue]

Hi, Which elements did you use?

[kane]

It was one of these
http://www.copperkettlehomebrewing.co.u ... kw-element

I think its the same as those from http://www.heatingelementcompany.co.uk (website doesnt seem to be working for me at the minute)

I'll be testing out the boiler for real tomorrow, just bodging together a mash tun manifiold (dont have a pipe bender so the pipe ended up a bit kinked)