Hop Steeping - a debate

[jmc]

IMO speed of cooling has no effect on the amount of cold break but rapid cooling increases the size,
if you chill slowly the cold break still happens, but the break matter is much finer. Others my disagree

Thanks Scooby, that makes sense.

I would have thought the overall solubility of cold-break proteins would only be affected by wort temp, not by the cooling rate

It sounds plausable that the cooling rate would possibly change the structure / size of the break.
It certainly does in inorganic chemistry with crystallisation etc

[Middo]

Great thread, lots of interesting theories. I'm still undecided whether to stick with my current approach of steeping straight after the boil and cooling after 30 mins or to start cooling straight away. Guess it's time to start experimenting...

[Capn Ahab]

Capn Ahab, I dont know where you get the idea of 80c steeping or steeping hot as a mistake made by british brewers... In fact, its practised by more US brewers than UK until recently. Why did i say recently? Well, most older UK breweries use a hopback as a means to extract aroma, so I dont know where u got the notion of UK brewers steeping hot exclusively.

An unfounded prejudice maybe. I've only ever seen reference made to it on JBK, never in any of the books I've read or overseas forums I've browsed, and never in any recipes other than those seen on UK forums.

I'm sure that you are having great success with ur method, but to say that others are making a mistake is a MISTAKE. Brewing and to a great extent, homebrewing has no hardline rules on what makes a good or great beer. Firestone walker add their dry hops just at high krausen starts falling, but russian river believes in taking most of the yeast out first before dry hopping, and both head brewers have great respect for each other as well as the beers.

Fair enough, good point. I have tried plenty of homebrewed beers that have had the 80 C steep (mine included) that have had underwhelming aroma, especially compared to beers using flameoutandchill hops so I guess I have a bias. Thinking about this a bit more in light of what you and Critch have said, most, if not all of the hoppy pales I have enjoyed from top notch breweries must have had their final hop addition sitting in hot wort for an extended period, while in the vid Orlando posted (nice one, thanks!) the guy says that the 'oil fractions' or aroma compounds boil off at absurdly low temps, so how do these two things tally up?

I'm not sure I am completely swayed by the arguments you and Critch have put up, as I can't shake the feeling that hot steeping for an extended period, be it 95 C or 80 C, will drive off lots (most) of the volatile oils, but it's food for thought. Two interesting points I took from the video were 1. That there are compounds in wort that actually solubalise (spelling?) the oil fractions, and as such bind the aromas into the wort. This may explain why a beer bittered with citra, for example, can still be reminiscent of pineapple even if bramling cross and goldings were used late on. 2. There is a relationship between energy (heat) applied to the hops, and by extension the resins, and time, in which the same bitterness can be extracted by a high temp for a short time or a lower temp for a long time. I wonder if the same is true for the oils; if so it gives credence to both sides of the argument...

[Dr. Dextrin]

Just watched the video... and noted the points about hop oils evaporating if the temperature is too high. However, I also noted that the guy is trying to sell "boutique" hops and his selling point is that they have unique aroma because they're processed at a low temperature. So I guess it's possible there's a modicum of snake as well as hop oil involved.

My experience, and I think that of others, suggests that you can get pretty good aroma by steeping at near-boiling temperatures (and in my case not even cooling rapidly after that). In fact, several times I've assessed the aroma as excessive and had to reduce the late hops. However, I do mainly use traditional British hop varieties. I guess it's possible that if you want an "essence of grapefruit" effect from using newer hop varieties you might get it more readily at a lower temperature, as this apparently involves more volatile hop oils. But that still doesn't quite tally with the use of (say) Saaz hops, whose aroma (according to the guy in the video) is supposed to be especially volatile and therefore shouldn't really exist if you haven't bought your hops from him.

It seems more likely to me that it's harder to drive off the oils than he claims, and simple physical chemistry may explain it. Even if a hop oil has a low boiling point, it doesn't necessarily follow that if it's mixed with water (or wort) you will drive it all off simply because the liquid is hot. You'll lose some, but not all, and it may also take some time to lose it. It's like if you heat water and a small amount of alcohol to above 78C (the boiling point of ethanol) all the alcohol doesn't immediately leave the solution. In fact, if the solution isn't actually boiling, the amount of evaporation will stay pretty small. The alcohol concentration in the vapour will be well below 100%, so the solution will stay alcoholic for quite a while.

Also, if there is bonding between the oils and components of the wort, that may also reduce the loss of oils. The video alludes to this at a couple of points but doesn't go into details. However, if we are indeed talking about oils here, then there pretty well has to be some bonding because they won't be soluble in water otherwise. The oils being locked into the liquid isn't necessarily incompatible with them imparting an aroma because the nose can detect very small quantities.

So my view is that the video is a bit theoretical and shouldn't be taken too seriously if it appears to contradict what one finds from experience.

[DemonBrew]

So my view is that the video is a bit theoretical and shouldn't be taken too seriously if it appears to contradict what one finds from experience.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[DemonBrew]

White & Zainasheff in Yeast argue for dry hopping a lot later in fermentation but in a commercial setting day 3 might be "late" in the fermentation, it would be interesting to hear from you what happens by delaying a couple of days and comparing the 2 batches. Easy for me to say I know, I don't have any money riding on it, but as you say "expensive hops". There may be a cost benefit to it if less hops later works.

I tried many variations during testing for the beers and to be honest, it didn't make a difference either way Orlando.
It's just convenient for me to bung in the hops then as I also put in Aux finings then seal the FV and start chilling. It's more to do with when to add the finings and chill that is important as the finings work better as they chill. Sealing the FV traps the Co2 as well.

I don't have conditioning tanks so my FV is the vessel for everything and then straight to cask.

[Aleman]

Just watched the video...that still doesn't quite tally with the use of (say) Saaz hops, whose aroma (according to the guy in the video) is supposed to be especially volatile and therefore shouldn't really exist if you haven't bought your hops from him.

Yeah, I remember a time when I was in Czechoslovakia (Yes it was that long ago) at a small town brewery and I was given a huge bucket of sticky Saaz hops by the Brew master to throw into the copper one the boil had finished "It's very Important . . . for the aroma!"

[darkonnis]

I see what you're saying Dextrin and I have no doubt to a point that you are correct, but i would also say that the volatility of oils will differ from hop to hop. Even the same type of hop will differ year to year (different concentrations etc) and i think James from the video pointed out that there is a relationship of Heat and Time, not just one or the other. Aswell, without physically getting into the chemistry of it, it isn't possible to tell what is being evaporated off at different temperatures, as ultimately the aroma released could be a combination of different chemical oils and not just one. I think though as you and others have stated that it is very much down to experience; that is personal experience, as to what gives you what. There may be other ways, "better" ways to get certain things out of the hops but you may then find as you say, the aroma/taste is overpowering.

On a side note, I don't think james from the video is saying anythign from a pure sales point of view, I would be interested to get some hops that he has kilned vs those of another hop seller to see if there is a noticeable difference down to temperature, short of doing that, I don't think its possible to what difference it would make and if the oils he speaks of actually boil off or not.

[subfaction]

so.... to work this out properly one would need to know the hops properties with regards to temp... BUT personally I'm looking to copy a known technique that works for you, from experience, for batches around 23/5 litres, I'm only at AG#06 so just looking for a general consensus (at least as far as can be had on the interwebs...)
[.sub ducks for cover]

[boingy]

... so just looking for a general consensus...

Mostly ignore this thread and chuck in your late hops when the post boil wort is down to 80C.

[darkonnis]

... so just looking for a general consensus...

Mostly ignore this thread and chuck in your late hops when the post boil wort is down to 80C.

Pretty much, it's like all the rest of it, it can be a fun hobby or an exact science. Find something you like and just make it a few times and differ how long you put hops in/when you put hops in to get what you want, no way to tell without a bit of trial and error.

[Scooby]

... so just looking for a general consensus...

Mostly ignore this thread and chuck in your late hops when the post boil wort is down to 80C.

Pretty much, it's like all the rest of it, it can be a fun hobby or an exact science. Find something you like and just make it a few times and differ how long you put hops in/when you put hops in to get what you want, no way to tell without a bit of trial and error.

I like it when there's a positive conclusion

[musojohn]

Cracking thread. Fantastic to see commercial brewers adding to the debate as well ... I feel lucky...

Has anyone got any specific examples/advice about what the resultant flavours/flavour intensity is, based on differences between 1) adding hops at flame out then steeping (before chilling) and 2) chilling to 80C then steeping ? and how did those flavours change when the length of the steeping changed between the 2 methods
From most of my listening from the CYBI show they often try and clone beers where the commercial brewerys add flame out hops and then whirlpool, but their answer to this is, in fact, to move the addtion back to 10-15 minutes. This is to adjust because of how many IBUS you are getting when the wort is taking hours to chill and is above 80C. They rarely discuss or advocate steeping hops for any length of time and never beolow 80C. That is when trying to replicate clone beers...

I'm looking to do a daft Kernel style IIPA next and (dry hopping aside) looking to get as much absurd hop character as i can.

This is making me itch to crack on and brew today... Confound my gorgeous 2 year old and sunday daddy time...

[darkonnis]

Mostly ignore this thread and chuck in your late hops when the post boil wort is down to 80C.

Pretty much, it's like all the rest of it, it can be a fun hobby or an exact science. Find something you like and just make it a few times and differ how long you put hops in/when you put hops in to get what you want, no way to tell without a bit of trial and error.

I like it when there's a positive conclusion

I think it is positive, it is basically a queue for you to do whatever on earth you feel like with full creative freedom! very few projects allow such scope, I'm half tempted to make a few IPA's once I've found a hop i like lots and then report differences between them, or find a few people who'd be interested and make the same thing, but introducing hops at different times, and steeping at different temps for different amounts of time etc Would save me making too much "practice beer"

[floydmeddler]

[quote="boingy"]Sometimes I hate this forum. I was all set to make a DIY hopback in the belief that it would improve the hop aroma. Now I'm not sure whether I should bother. /quote]

Me too! However, I'm glad as I don't have to go to the bother!