Hop Steeping - a debate

[Middo]

I've just been digging through my brew log and I've recently unknowingly brewed a batch with a 30 min post-boil steep that has a very similar grain bill and hop schedule to one I made last year with a 20 min steep at 80C. The late hop schedule for the one last year was:

30g Simcoe for 15 mins
20g Chinook for 10 mins
7g Amarillo for 5 mins
20g Simcoe steeped at 80C for 20 mins

The one I've done recently was:

20g Columbus for 15 mins
25g Simcoe for 10 mins
10g Chinook for 5 mins
25g Simcoe & 7g Chinook steeped at flame-out for 30 mins

The first recipe used US-05 and the second used WLP001 and both had similar grain bills (Maris Otter, Munich & Crystal vs Maris Otter, Vienna & Crystal, in almost identical proportions) and fermentation conditions. I would have expected the second to have a more pronounced hop aroma due to the increased amount of steeped hops but last year's beer had noticeably more.

Although this is a one-off comparison with several uncontrolled variables I think I'll try steeping at lower temps (maybe even mashing temps?) for a few batches to see if it makes much of a difference to my brews.

[jmc]

....Those points came from a YouTube video on the BeerSmith channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qD17ZeTSsE. It was an interview with a hop grower from Wisconsin (James Altwies) he had some very interesting information about hops and the ways in which they are being used in the USA. It was he that suggested the low steep temp, arguing that high temps will drive off the volatile oils that make the aroma in beer....

... I think I'll try steeping at lower temps (maybe even mashing temps?) for a few batches to see if it makes much of a difference to my brews.

That video was really interesting.
In video aroma additions discussed around 37min 30sec to 40min, then he talkes about dry hopping

James Altwies suggested adding aroma hops at 120F (49C!)

I've tried reducing the steep temp in the brew I did at the weekend (Toddy Best) steeping from 60C-55C for about 30mins.
Be interesting to see if aroma is better.

[simple one]

I have just tasted my first 50C steep, loads of hops, 30 minutes.... Not impressed.

I think heat is essential in carrying over flavour and aroma in a comparatively short steeping time.

I will go back to flame out and 80C steeping.

[Capn Ahab]

Been thinking about this topic a bit lately and chatting to various people and reading up a bit.

As soon as you stop boiling your wort can start producing dms pre-cursors again. If that is not reason enough to chill as quickly as possible, then the extra risk of infection that you run is. Since I've had a couple of beers in my local that were a bit ho ho ho, green giant recently, and dms is only produced by wort (rather than yeast, say) maybe those brewers should be trying to chill their beers a bit faster.

Another great point that someone on the aha forum made was that commercial volumes and homebrew aren't really comparable. Jamil talks about this a fair bit on the brewing network. He had to alter his recipes a hell of a lot when he moved from homebrew to pro, particularly the final hop addition.

All those people who do an extended steep at 80 c or whatever 'because it's what commercials do' perhaps need to think about how close to commercial practices they are, or even can reproduce at home. How many of us whirlpool after the boil for example? If you're gonna replicate the whirlpool/steep perhaps you ought to think about what kind of effect the moving of the wort around has on the solubility of the volatiles. Whenever I've done an 80 c steep there's always a slick of oil on the surface after half an hour. This is a) where aroma oils go to evaporate and b) never gonna end up in your finished beer as it isn't soluble and gets filtered out by the hop bed.

Remember kids, dogma is bad.

[Scooby]

I have just tasted my first 50C steep, loads of hops, 30 minutes.... Not impressed.

I think heat is essential in carrying over flavour and aroma in a comparatively short steeping time.

I will go back to flame out and 80C steeping.

I think most of us have come to that conclusion.

[Capn Ahab]

I think most of us have come to that conclusion.

So that's a reason to continue, is it? F'kin ell mate, not much of a debate if that's what you offer as an argument. How about a bit of technical knowledge or a concrete reason why what I am saying is wrong? And no, saying 'we all do it that way, always have, always will' is not a good argument...

[simple one]

My take on this. I am not a chemist and I'm no expert.

I have never had DMS. I have never heard of any no chill brewers having DMS. I really can't see the problem with a pause of 20mins to 1hour added to cooling time. I'm not sure what temperature DMS pre cursour starts to appear. And I don't know at what temperature it stops being produced. Once driven off I don't know where it comes back from.
Personally I would only worry about possible DMS if I left the lid on for the whole boil, had a seriously short boil time or were using some sort of backward malt. Even then I have tasted beer brewed with these three methods and they never had any off flavours. Maybe just lucky.

I don't worry about infection of the wort at 80C, because it's at 80C and it's covered with a lid and towel. It's only open to the elements when it's boiling, or when I throw the hops in at 80C.

I have come to use the 80C steep through experimentation. I have tried nearly every method to get more hop aroma for less hops. Dry hopping, hop teas, pre-oxidising, 5 min additions, Hop Oils!, flame out additions, 50C steeps etc.... With the 80C steep being the most efficient to lock the maximum aroma in to solution in the quickest time.

Again I'm no chemist, but my findings tie nicely in with Graham Wheelers oxidise hop oil theory.

(edited due to spelling)

[Dr. Dextrin]

I think most of us have come to that conclusion.

So that's a reason to continue, is it? F'kin ell mate, not much of a debate if that's what you offer as an argument. How about a bit of technical knowledge or a concrete reason why what I am saying is wrong? And no, saying 'we all do it that way, always have, always will' is not a good argument...

The concrete reason why what you're saying is most likely wrong is because in practice people steep hops in hot wort all the time and don't cool quickly and (a) get good aroma and (b) don't get DMS. I think scooby was just summarising that. OTOH, you seem to be saying that method shouldn't work, when it plainly does.

[Capn Ahab]

Ah, a good answer Dr D, but, I'm not categorically saying steeping hops doesn't work (that would be stupid); I'm saying that:
1. DMS is a risk.
2. Infection is a risk.
3. Hop aroma oils a) evaporate in steam and b) are soluble in most organic solvents (Brewing Science and Practice by Dennis E Briggs, Chris A Boulton, Peter A Brookes and Roger Stevens). Therefore since most pro's whirlpool post-boil, this must aid in absorbing the oils into solution, because when hops are left to steep on the top of the wort the oils naturally rise to the top of the liquid and are generally evaporated.

I think it's useful to draw a distinction between homebrew and pro-brew. As I've said all along, whirlpooling is done for reasons other than hop aroma extraction, which is a corollary effect, and in any case whirlpooling is not done by most homebrewers, so I don't think saying: yes, I'll leave my hops in hot wort, but no, I won't agitate them in any way, is that well thought through if the original logic is to mimic the pro's.

The overarching point is that banging your flameout hops in and turning the chiller on is the safest (fact) and most effective way of getting late hop flavour/aroma (in my opinion). You might be getting good results with a steep, but I don't think the risk or the reward is worth it.

If I'm being deliberately argumentative, it's because there's an awful lot of dogma on JBK, and it doesn't hurt to question stuff once in a while.

[Capn Ahab]

The concrete reason why what you're saying is most likely wrong is because in practice people steep hops in hot wort all the time and don't cool quickly and (a) get good aroma and (b) don't get DMS. I think scooby was just summarising that. OTOH, you seem to be saying that method shouldn't work, when it plainly does.

BTW that is not much more than the old 'Always done it, always will' argument is it? I thought you were a doctor?

[Capn Ahab]

I have never had DMS. I have never heard of any no chill brewers having DMS. I really can't see the problem with a pause of 20mins to 1hour added to cooling time. I'm not sure what temperature DMS pre cursour starts to appear. And I don't know at what temperature it stops being produced. Once driven off I don't know where it comes back from.
Personally I would only worry about possible DMS if I left the lid on for the whole boil, had a seriously short boil time or were using some sort of backward malt. Even then I have tasted beer brewed with these three methods and they never had any off flavours. Maybe just lucky.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... l_sulfides

"Because DMS is created at temperatures below boiling, cooling the wort too slowly means that excessive levels of DMS can be created which cannot be evaporated once the boil has stopped."

Lots of homebrewers I know have brought beers to club meetings and been surprised to learn that they have DMS in their beer...

Again I'm no chemist, but my findings tie nicely in with Graham Wheelers oxidise hop oil theory.

Is this is BYOBRA or somewhere else - I've never heard of it.

[Dr. Dextrin]

BTW that is not much more than the old 'Always done it, always will' argument is it? I thought you were a doctor?

It's just that you seem to be arguing there are unacceptable risks with this approach. I was just pointing out that in practice no-one seems to be falling foul of them. So actually, they seem to be quite acceptable risks, if they exist at all.

There's nothing wrong with arguing that there's a better way. I'm quite happy to accept that agitation might be a good idea, possibly also cooling if it can be shown to produce better beer. But I think practical results are needed. Yes, there is a lot of dogma in brewing, but there are a lot of half-baked theories too.

To add one of my own, if the hop oils aren't dissolving (as you say) then a high temperature should be beneficial, because solubility will increase at high temperatures. Actually, I have no idea if that'll actually give a better result, but you see how easy it is to reach speculative conclusions?

[Capn Ahab]

To add one of my own, if the hop oils aren't dissolving (as you say) then a high temperature should be beneficial, because solubility will increase at high temperatures. Actually, I have no idea if that'll actually give a better result, but you see how easy it is to reach speculative conclusions?

Nah, that's just bonkers mate. Volatile oils are called volatile for a reason. You're right though, my idea that whirlpooling helps keep the oils in solution is speculative. But then I've experienced a huge loss in aroma from doing a long steep, and given that the oils are soluble (according to the real scientists) but also evaporate, this seems to make sense to me.

Others have said it: There's probably no concrete way of telling for sure unless you do identical brews with only the last addition changed, but even that is not exactly scientifically rigorous, since no two brews are exactly the same, and what's more the results may only apply to your set up.

Even though lots of people are not getting DMS (so they say) or infections (again, who can reliably spot e.g pediococcus among us?), I don't fancy the risk, especially when a big lug of hops at flameout and chill is so effective.

[Aleman]

Just to clarify, DMS is produced in large quantities mainly from lager malts (due to the slightly different malting techniques, and kilning), such that it will still be present after a long boil. It is also produced from ale malts but as the malt has less precursor then it is not present in above the taste threshold at the end of the boil (Brewing 2nd ed Lewis And Young) . . . This does assume a boil of sufficient vigour and duration.

Also the Boiling point of DMS is around 35C, and the 'step point' at which the production of DMS from SMM increases dramatically is around 40C, so a steep at 80C still gets rid of any DMS being produced . . . In fact adding hops at flame out and then chilling very rapidly could very well trap DMS in the beer.

Or is it that DMS is a different sort of volatile component???

One other point, DMS like overtones are a classic sign of infection . . . IIRC . . . Pediococcus

[critch]

Remember kids, dogma is bad.

i quite liked the film.

VERY few uk micros have a whirlpool system........

quick wort chilling itself is bloody new, only about100-120 years old, before that coolships or basic no chilling where the order of the day , while i fully agree that dms formation can be a problem, its on par with hot side aeration, i have brewed over 600 times and NEVER experienced dms(maybe because im bloody careful....)over 3/4 of these brews have hot steeped hops and i can soddin' gaurentee theres a lot of hop taste and aroma in my beer. as for infection? not going to happen if your careful mate, pasteurisation is done mid 60's never mind 80 in a freshly boiled wort, yes there are certain spores that can survive 120.c+ temps but they cant tolerate alcohol, also hops as stated many times have antiseptic qualities, if you still want to create a whirlpool in a little boiler , heres a bit of lateral thinking, use a spoon.....