Hop Steeping - a debate

[alikocho]

Deleted duplicate post

[simple one]

Surely most people stick on what works for there system, not what the big breweries round the world recommend. OK it's a good starting point, but If you get poor aroma and that's what you want, you then move on to experiment with a different method. I think most people have come to find that 80C steeps work for them through experimenting.

I wouldn't feel qualified to voice my opinions without having tried pretty much all methods. As I have stated before I have tried the "lock it in" method of chilling quick and 80C long steep.
The only one I haven't done (or completed, it's in the fermenter) is a hop steep out of the boiler (almost like dry hopping water and then adding back in at flame out to sanitise). Which is looking promising with only 25g of hops for 20L.

[Dr. Dextrin]

I think you're right simple one. With almost all aspects of my system I've started out with the best advice I can get and then refined it through experimentation. I don't see how you can really decide these sorts of issues by trying all the possibilities - there are just too many. Even if you did, it probably wouldn't translate to someone else's kit. The best you can hope for is to iterate towards better beer, without going backwards too often.

The advantage of a thread like this is not that it'll pin the issue down, but that it'll give you new ideas to try out.

[Scooby]

Watch out, we might be back at square one........

I have just tasted my first 50C steep, loads of hops, 30 minutes.... Not impressed.

I think heat is essential in carrying over flavour and aroma in a comparatively short steeping time.

I will go back to flame out and 80C steeping.

I think most of us have come to that conclusion.

So that's a reason to continue, is it? F'kin ell mate, not much of a debate if that's what you offer as an argument. How about a bit of technical knowledge or a concrete reason why what I am saying is wrong? And no, saying 'we all do it that way, always have, always will' is not a good argument...

I don't do the scientific thing and I don't do the 'always have and always will either.' Over the years I've used all the techniques
mentioned on here and more. I find the most effective for maximum flavour is late additions and a steep off the boil. For maximum
aroma dry hopping in the FV is the most effective. Obviously the amount of hops added at each stage effects the final result. So for me,
yes, that is the reason to continue and I echo what simple one and Dr Dextrin said above and....

To be honest, I think we need less reasoning and more experimentation. Empirical facts trump all theory.

It takes me 10 minutes to empty a five gallon batch through mine,

(Mine refers to a CFC.) I was thinking about this and the chill as soon a possible theory. It would be interesting to collect the first litre out of the CFC
where the wort would have had approx 25 sec contact with the hops, and compare it with the last litre at 10 mins,

[Capn Ahab]

Watch out, we might be back at square one........

Maybe..... But hopefully not - if nothing else this debate should provide plenty of food for thought for people who have always assumed that there is an undisputed best way of doing things. To echo Ali, we all make choices about how or what we brew, and as long as you feel you're maximising your process, then you'll get what you get.

[Scooby]

You're not hungry then

[Capn Ahab]

No mate, just eaten (burp)

[Aleman]

I've just spent a weekend brewing at a commercial brewery that does do an 80C steep

They recirc through the paraflow until the wort is at 80C, then the hops go in, and they only start the transfer when the wort is at 70-75C. . . .which can be some time in a 12BBL batch . . . . plus the transfer time is around an hour to an hour and a half.

What amazed me was when digging the hops out of the kettle 12 hours later there was still a significant aroma (Cluster and cascade)

Edit: Oh and if you happen to get a chance of drinking Wibblers Crafty Mole - 5.4% (or around winter time Wibblers Wobbly Mole 9.5%) let me know what you think. The Crafty is a Cascadian, and the Wobbly an Imperial Cascadian (We partigyled then by running 2BBL out of the mash tun without sparging into the small kettle )

[critch]

I've just spent a weekend brewing at a commercial brewery that does do an 80C steep

They recirc through the paraflow until the wort is at 80C, then the hops go in, and they only start the transfer when the wort is at 70-75C. . . .which can be some time in a 12BBL batch . . . . plus the transfer time is around and hour to an hour and a half.

What amazed me was when digging the hops out of the kettle 12 hours later there was still a significant aroma (Cluster and cascade)

watch it aleman you'll have alikocho telling you that homebrewers dont want to follow comercial examples!

[alikocho]

I've just spent a weekend brewing at a commercial brewery that does do an 80C steep

They recirc through the paraflow until the wort is at 80C, then the hops go in, and they only start the transfer when the wort is at 70-75C. . . .which can be some time in a 12BBL batch . . . . plus the transfer time is around and hour to an hour and a half.

What amazed me was when digging the hops out of the kettle 12 hours later there was still a significant aroma (Cluster and cascade)

watch it aleman you'll have alikocho telling you that homebrewers dont want to follow comercial examples!

That's not what I said. I said that you couldn't assume that ALL homebrewers want to follow commercial examples.

[simple one]

This is quite a good thread on an american forum with an experiment similar to the one I was going to do.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/how-get ... ns-213803/

It's funny how similar the opposing view points are on the other side of the pond.

[Skittlebrau]

Just to weigh back in on this, which has turned into a really interesting thread - on my last but one brew I used the chill-immediately-after-flameout-addition method. The hops I had were very promising and the aroma coming off the kettle was amazing, but this didn't translate into the finished beer, which had to be dry-hopped to save it from total mediocrity. Last brew I went back to steeping and all is well again, so I will be continuing with the 80 C steep. This isn't scientific, and my water treatment was botched for that brew and sorted again for the last brew, but I don't think it was enough to completely knacker the hop aroma like that. I also think there's a lot in what Critch and others have said about the time the wort sits in the copper waiting to go through the chiller.

[Skittlebrau]

Having just read that thread from HBT and heard from Kelly Ryan on that podcast that Thornbridge use a post-boil steep, I'm going to stick with it. Need to give Pacific Jade another chance!

[johnmac]

Is it true that there's no point getting lots of hop aroma in the beer if it's going to be matured, since the aroma will disappear before drinking? So the 80c hops should only be added if the beer is to be drunk ASAP?

Can anyone comment on GW's method of steeping the flavour hops in warm water before adding them to the boil? Does it work?

[Befuddler]

Can anyone comment on GW's method of steeping the flavour hops in warm water before adding them to the boil? Does it work?

No. I tried pre-oxidation of the aroma hops on a recent brew and it just made the hops taste stale.