Increasing Alkalinity in "Soft Water"

[vacant]

Would this 5.2 pH stabilizer help?

[Wolfy]

In effect both. He adds them to suit the style, adjusts the mash pH to 5.5. For him it is all about getting the mash pH right. When you think about it if you don't get this right how do you recover? A small example, there is a lot of talk about sparging too low and extracting tannins from the grains. As long as the sparge liquour is under pH 6 this doesn't happen, it's an argument for not bothering with a refractometer to quickly check for gravity below 1.010; why bother?

Seems to be more-or-less what I do then - except I thought that some salts were required in the mash - so I add most of mine there, after they have been calculated based on the beer being brewed.

I add a few drops of lactic acid to the sparge water (water pH is about 7) so I guess that would bring it down to close to pH 6.
My efficiency calculator-thing has a field for checking the gravity of final-runnings, and it takes 2seconds, so why not.

Brew club has the book in it's library so it's on my list of books to borrow/read.

[orlando]

They are, I didn't mean to suggest mash salts aren't required, my apologies. Strong mentions lactic acid as an alternative but prefers the more neutral phosporic acid.

I don't understand the bit about the gravity of the final runnings. I always thought efficiency was calculated using the gravity of the whole of the collected wort, knowing what the final runnings gravity is seems irrelevant to me, other than the old canard about astringency below a certain gravity, maybe I'm missing something.

[Wolfy]

I don't understand the bit about the gravity of the final runnings. I always thought efficiency was calculated using the gravity of the whole of the collected wort, knowing what the final runnings gravity is seems irrelevant to me, other than the old canard about astringency below a certain gravity, maybe I'm missing something.

The 'efficiency_calculator.xls' has a nice chart to indicate where efficiency is lost - including 'non converted' and 'not drained to kettle' fields, hence it uses the gravity of final runnings and the like.

[orlando]

I don't understand the bit about the gravity of the final runnings. I always thought efficiency was calculated using the gravity of the whole of the collected wort, knowing what the final runnings gravity is seems irrelevant to me, other than the old canard about astringency below a certain gravity, maybe I'm missing something.

The 'efficiency_calculator.xls' has a nice chart to indicate where efficiency is lost - including 'non converted' and 'not drained to kettle' fields, hence it uses the gravity of final runnings and the like.

That's a really good source, thanks.

[simple one]

There is a 4th option that Gordon Strong advocates and one that might suit you as he has soft water himself. His approach is to start with a level playing field and use reverse osmosis water, buying it or fitting a system into your domestic supply (there are some relatively inexpensive ones for our needs). This effectively strips just about everything out and allows you to then just add the salt additions needed for the style you wish. He tests for total dissolved solids to see if he needs to measure his strike water pH adjustment, treating with phosphoric acid to get it to 5.5. Interestingly Sierra Nevada treat ALL their water this way so they are always using a known profile and adjust accordingly. He also makes the point that as your water profile can change during the year unless you are regularly testing it you can end up making unnecessary additions which end up fighting each other (a sort of robbing Peter etc).

He then adds salts to the mash based on the underlying beer style (malty or hoppy), sometimes adding salts to the boil. I haven't done this yet myself (spent quite a lot recently and I keep hearing mutterings, particularly as the leccy company has just written to say they need to put our monthly leccy payments up by £20 a month ) but it makes sense and seeems to me a much simpler approach to this fiendishly complex subject.

So how does he increase his alkalinity? Does he add CaCO3 to the mash?

[orlando]

There is a 4th option that Gordon Strong advocates and one that might suit you as he has soft water himself. His approach is to start with a level playing field and use reverse osmosis water, buying it or fitting a system into your domestic supply (there are some relatively inexpensive ones for our needs). This effectively strips just about everything out and allows you to then just add the salt additions needed for the style you wish. He tests for total dissolved solids to see if he needs to measure his strike water pH adjustment, treating with phosphoric acid to get it to 5.5. Interestingly Sierra Nevada treat ALL their water this way so they are always using a known profile and adjust accordingly. He also makes the point that as your water profile can change during the year unless you are regularly testing it you can end up making unnecessary additions which end up fighting each other (a sort of robbing Peter etc).

He then adds salts to the mash based on the underlying beer style (malty or hoppy), sometimes adding salts to the boil. I haven't done this yet myself (spent quite a lot recently and I keep hearing mutterings, particularly as the leccy company has just written to say they need to put our monthly leccy payments up by £20 a month ) but it makes sense and seeems to me a much simpler approach to this fiendishly complex subject.

So how does he increase his alkalinity? Does he add CaCO3 to the mash?

I reckon the first thing he would say is worry about getting your mash pH in the right range first. If it is you shouldn't be worrying too much about water adjustment. But yes Chalk, however, better in the mash as it is not particularly soluble, particularly at non-acidic pH levels and they can leave behind undesirable flavours and he doesn't recommend it. Usually however, you don't want to raise alkalinity. If you do the most flavour neutral way is using your own water which tends to be higher in pH (mine is 7.2)

[simple one]

There is a 4th option that Gordon Strong advocates and one that might suit you as he has soft water himself. His approach is to start with a level playing field and use reverse osmosis water, buying it or fitting a system into your domestic supply (there are some relatively inexpensive ones for our needs). This effectively strips just about everything out and allows you to then just add the salt additions needed for the style you wish. He tests for total dissolved solids to see if he needs to measure his strike water pH adjustment, treating with phosphoric acid to get it to 5.5. Interestingly Sierra Nevada treat ALL their water this way so they are always using a known profile and adjust accordingly. He also makes the point that as your water profile can change during the year unless you are regularly testing it you can end up making unnecessary additions which end up fighting each other (a sort of robbing Peter etc).

He then adds salts to the mash based on the underlying beer style (malty or hoppy), sometimes adding salts to the boil. I haven't done this yet myself (spent quite a lot recently and I keep hearing mutterings, particularly as the leccy company has just written to say they need to put our monthly leccy payments up by £20 a month ) but it makes sense and seeems to me a much simpler approach to this fiendishly complex subject.

So how does he increase his alkalinity? Does he add CaCO3 to the mash?

I reckon the first thing he would say is worry about getting your mash pH in the right range first. If it is you shouldn't be worrying too much about water adjustment. But yes Chalk, however, better in the mash as it is not particularly soluble, particularly at non-acidic pH levels and they can leave behind undesirable flavours and he doesn't recommend it. Usually however, you don't want to raise alkalinity. If you do the most flavour neutral way is using your own water which tends to be higher in pH (mine is 7.2)

The chalk will adjust the mash pH, or at least help the mash pH not to drop too low. That is all this thread is about.
I need to increase alkalinity in my liquor for dark beers, as I have only 20-30ppm CaCO3. Yours is probably a lot higher.
I also think all tap water has a very similar pH. But then that's not the problem.

I wouldn't be happy about mashing in a dark beer with RO water with salts added. Would feel that the CaCO3 would only dissolve once the mash pH is plummeting, and I would rather see my salts dissolved in the mash liquor prior to brewing.

[Wolfy]

For additional reference (since dissolving chalk in CO2 pressurized water has already been spoken about) the 'Advanced' tab of the 'Kaiser_water_calculator.xls' has calculations for the water/chalk/pressure required.

[simple one]

Thanks for the link... it looks quite complicated. Off to play about with it.

[orlando]

So how does he increase his alkalinity? Does he add CaCO3 to the mash?

I reckon the first thing he would say is worry about getting your mash pH in the right range first. If it is you shouldn't be worrying too much about water adjustment. But yes Chalk, however, better in the mash as it is not particularly soluble, particularly at non-acidic pH levels and they can leave behind undesirable flavours and he doesn't recommend it. Usually however, you don't want to raise alkalinity. If you do the most flavour neutral way is using your own water which tends to be higher in pH (mine is 7.2)

The chalk will adjust the mash pH, or at least help the mash pH not to drop too low. That is all this thread is about.
I need to increase alkalinity in my liquor for dark beers, as I have only 20-30ppm CaCO3. Yours is probably a lot higher.
I also think all tap water has a very similar pH. But then that's not the problem.


I wouldn't be happy about mashing in a dark beer with RO water with salts added. Would feel that the CaCO3 would only dissolve once the mash pH is plummeting, and I would rather see my salts dissolved in the mash liquor prior to brewing.

Then don't mash your dark grains. Your intersted in mash pH so why mash something that isn't adding much fermentable sugar? Most dark grains are added for flavour and colour,so why let them ruin your mash chemistry and drive unwanted salt additions? Strong draws an analogy about doing this that I think is quite compelling. He makes a comparison between freshly brewed coffee and some that has been sitting on a hot plate for up to 1.5 hours! It's going to extract harshness, bitterness and of course extra acidity. There are a number of alternatives. You could add grains during the vorlauf or the sparge. You could steep them (hot or cold) this then gives you options over when to introduce to the wort, in the boil, even in the fermentor. Doing it later introduces the option of blending allowing you to introduce flavour and colour under complete control.

This thread is about mash pH but above all it is trying to simplify a complex area of brewing and RO water and the blank slate it gives you is a compelling idea.

[simple one]

Ah, I see. That's what I have already been doing. I call it a 'grain tea', which I steep, strain, boil, cool, and add straight in to the fermenter. I was under the impression that you were prescribing adding dark grains to the mash with RO water.

My mistake.

[crookedeyeboy]

28.34g (1oz) of sodium carbonate (not bicarb) = 163ppm of alkalinity per brewers barrel (163lts)

For 23lt brewlength: 163 / 23 = 7.08

28.34 / 7.08 = 3.99g per 23 lts of beer to be made will add 163ppm of alkalinity.

Jobs a good un as they say

[Aleman]

28.34g (1oz) of sodium carbonate (not bicarb) = 163ppm of alkalinity per brewers barrel (163lts)

For 23lt brewlength: 163 / 23 = 7.08

28.34 / 7.08 = 3.99g per 23 lts of beer to be made will add 163ppm of alkalinity.

Jobs a good un as they say

Unless you are trying to avoid adding sodium

[Manx Guy]

Fascinating!

I have water very similar to the OP, and have faced the same problem.

However I dont really notice a real tang to my beers when I add Sodium bicarb and I only add it to get about 80ppm.

However the OP did taste one of my Porters with said liquor treatment and said he could taste it, so maybe his tastebuds are more sentistive to it than mine?

I might try the CO2 way of disolving Calcium Carbonate, other wise I might just add the dark grains at the end of the mash (although I might add the crystal to the main mash but NOT the choc/black/roasted)

A chance for experimenting, as I'm planning several beers soon that contain black or choc malts...

I will watch this thread with interest and contribute my findings

Cheers!

Guy