Nelson Sauvin and water treatment

[bryan_r]

I've done a couple of brews of the Kipling recipe from this thread, and I've been really happy with them.

I've also just started playing around with water treatment, so far only using CRS from The Malt Miller to soften my very hard Thames Water, with the intention of introducing one new variable at a time!

This brew, unfortunately, has a really quite unpleasant taste to it, enough so that unless it mellows out I'm expecting this to be headed down the drain.

I was putting it down to a random infection, especially after inspecting the FV and finding a scratched patch on the inside. Yesterday, however, I was in one of our local 'Spoons and had a pint of the Marstons Single Hop brew using Nelson Sauvin, and this has the same flavour that I dislike in my brew. And I now understand what some people have written about NS having a tarmac-like flavour to it - this is what I'm now tasting.

Now, I'm certainly not ruling out an infection, but could treating my water have resulted in this new flavour having come to the fore? Or maybe this year's NS is really different to last year?

Anyone have any ideas?

[soupdragon]

This brew, unfortunately, has a really quite unpleasant taste to it, enough so that unless it mellows out I'm expecting this to be headed down the drain.

Hi

Did you follow the exact same recipe for all the brews and did you dry hop or just late hop your brew?
I first did that recipe a while ago and didn't dry hop, I ended up with an odd flavour. It did fade over time and the brew did turn out quite well. I've got a 2nd attempt conditioning in mini kegs now along with a couple of bottles that I dry hopped. Tried one of the bottles the other day and it tastes like a totally different beer.
Just a thought

Cheers Tom

[bryan_r]

I must admit I've differed the late hopping between my different versions, but this one was made in exactly the same way as the last batch.

[soupdragon]

So the same recipe and method last time produced a beer you were happy with?

If the only thing you did differently was the water treatment, it might be worth doing another without just to determine if it's causing some unforseen problems or not....
I've never used CRS but from what I've read of it it looks as if it might be quite easy to get something wrong somewhere

Cheers Tom

[CharlieTwoPies]

Hi all,

stumbled across this thread after just yesterday I made one of my favourite recipes which is a single-hop NS IPA (possibly more of a pale as it is perhaps a little too tame to really merit the title IPA but it can pass for an IPA. I digress...). This is the first brew I have tried treating my impossibly hard East Yorkshire water with AMS (CRS) and am obviously now a little concerned by the sight of this old thread! This, not least because I love this beer so very much

I have never noticed any tarmac-like qualities to NS myself. I was wondering if any of the thoughts posited on this thread ever got anywhere or if any answers/solutions were ever come to over what the problem was and where it came from?

Once those lovely little yeasties have done their bit and then all the dry hop and conditioning etcetc have been done I will be able to tell if there's anything up with it but I thought in the meantime I might be able to get a heads up on what might be expected or what evasive action to take.

cheers

Charlie

[bryan_r]

I don't know if "tarmac" is necessarily accurate, but there's something in NS hops that I think has changed, and that I no longer like. My wife also agreed that the last batch I did has a flavour she didn't like, but she didn't think "tarmac" described it, but couldn't come up with anything better!

I've been treating my water for almost all my brews since that one (AG#34 in August 2012, and AG#46 is currently fermenting, so that's a fair few brews!), and had no other problems. I've also tasted the same flavour I don't like in a few commercial brews that use NS, including Kipling, and even one that I didn't know used NS, said "that uses Nelson Sauvin", so looked it up on RateBeer and it did...

So I've come to the conclusion that I just don't like NS any more. Kipling used to be one of my favourite beers, but now I'm not even keen on that any more. I'd kind of like to think it's that the hops that have changed, but if I'm the only one who thinks so then it must be my palate that's changed. I don't think it was an infection, residual chlorine from cleaning, or any of the usual off-flavour suspects.

So, if you like NS, you're probably good - and if not, please update this thread again as I'd be very interested to know!

[fego]

Everything is down to personal taste of course, but I don't like NS at all. In fact, I threw my NS hops away after wasting a brew using them such is my dislike...

[Belter]

That's a shame you could've dropped them up the road to my house?

[fego]

I've got heaps of EKG I can let you have to make up for it if you like? Grew it in the garden. Am down the weekend after next - we're all meeting up right?

[Belter]

Awesome thanks! Did you grow your EKG in east Kent?


Are you only down for the weekend?

That was the plan although No-one else seemed to be replying. It's my Niece's birthday (Matt12398's daughter) party that weekend so I'll have a chat with him as he was coming too. It may end up just being us three in which case it makes sense to go to the Rashleigh?

[fego]

I've replied on the original meet thread to let this one get back on topic

(apols OP)

[orlando]

I've not used NS hops so can only speculate about the water treatment and the affect this may have had. One of the key ratios in water for brewing is that between sulphate and chloride. CRS and AMS are designed to reduce alkalinity but introduce these as part of that process. It could be that they have effectively disturbed this balance in such a way as to make aspects of the NS flavour profile unacceptable to you. So for example high sulphate with high chloride levels can produce harsh minerally flavours affecting the perception of the NS flavours. I would need to know what the respective levels were to point at what it might be specifically, if at all. It could be that NS is not to some peoples taste but if you like it in commercial brews but not your own unless there is a dramatic difference in a seasons hop profile water treatment has a suspicious finger pointing at it.

The other thought I had was of course mash pH. How the addition of CRS and the malts used shifted this would be another aspect to look at.

[AnthonyUK]

I think it is possible some people are sensitive to something in NS as anything with it in such as Kipling or 5am Saint just taste of tar to me.
I've never smoked which I don't know if it is a factor or not.

[bryan_r]

I've been using the MaltMiller's AMS (CRS), and given my water hardness it's been averaging about 1ml/l. The table on his product page indicates that this will be adding roughly 59.2 to 78.9ppm chloride and 81.6 to 108.8ppm sulphate to my liquor.

The recipe was a very simple 75% pale malt, and 7.5% each of munich and torrefied wheat, so I don't imagine they added much acidity to the mash. I only have those pH test papers, so all I can say with any real confidence is that the pH was probably somewhere between 5 and 6!

I've decided by now that I don't like NS in commercial brews, but the flavour I dislike is normally at a much lower level than I had in my brew. I got through the bottles in the end, but never more than one in an evening!

[CharlieTwoPies]

I'll come back with an update once I have tried the beer and seen if there is anything dislikeable or unpleasant with it. There's a wonderful smell coming off of the fermenter, even through the yeast barm its smells beautiful, just how I remember the recipe to taste.....but in smell..... if you get me.

I'm not really sure if I follow the point about mash pH myself. Because of the extreme alkalinity, I chose to put the AMS in the liquor to be able to get the mash pH to a level more pleasant and more suitable to the style than untreated liquor. Other than 3.6% caramalt the grain bill was essentially pale and terrified wheat so I'm not sure I get what about the pH in that might lead to any unpleasantness (if indeed it does).

I'll have a look back at my figures from my brewday and an expanded profile of the liquor's mineral content and see what the sulphate and chloride comes out like.

I suppose if its a recipe I've always adored, and the early indications are thumbs up, then perhaps it is just a personal sensitivity to a character of NS.

Also, never knew Brewdog were such ardent users of NS. Is that where all the f*****g supplies of it disappear to every year!?