Identifying my problem...

[Piscator]

Check out the taps on your boilers - I recently had an issue which I traced to the seal around the spigot on my tap.
I strip my ball valve after every brew and remove the ball and seals, however the spigot through the body into the top of the ball was the culprit and was harbouring contamination.
I had to remove the handle and drop the spigot out, clean then boil everything to get rid of the problem.

I was on my 3rd fermeter before I tracked this down - I was sure I had the ball valve clean but turns out it was not clean enough.

Cheers
Steve

[9squirrels]

Cheers for the tip. Still got my fingers crossed it won't come to that, but if the current batch fails then I think I'll have to fully dismantle everything, like you suggest. For the time being, I've still got my hopes pinned on the immersion chiller being to blame, as the water I washed it in finished up looking pretty grim

[9squirrels]

Well here we go again I'm afraid.
Just tasted my latest batch. Only been in primary for five days, but it's down to 1.015, so nearly done. Different recipe to the last two, but not so far removed that I can't compare it to previous brews. It's a definite improvement on the last one with bottled water (which was truly horrible!), but that same off-flavour is still there. Slightly less obvious maybe, but still there.

Thoroughly cleaning my chiller and fermentation fridge, using a new fermenter and soaking everything fermentation-wise in bleach solution hasn't solved the problem, so I'm going to say that the problem must be happening before the end of the boil. But what to try next...
I could follow Steve'e example and start dismantling ball valves, etc., but the issue with that is that I've had this problem with two completely different setups (different boilers and mash tuns), so it seems unlikely that would solve the problem. Could the same infection have spread to more than one vessel...?
I noticed the copper manifold in my mash tun isn't as clean as it could be (I usually just blast the hose through it to rinse it out), but again, the same problem happened with another mash tun. Seems unlikely that both manifolds could be causing the same issue, as they've never come into contact with one another.

Feels like I'm running out of options. Does anyone know if something airborne in my basement could be causing this?
Wonder if it's worth trying a brew outside?

[orlando]

I think part of the struggle here is pinning down what exactly this taste is. You mention a harsh taste in your OP, that was masked a little by high hopping. You have tried cleaning and sanitising everything and even used bottled water. This, assuming everything was rinsed properly suggests that you are doing something during the brew. It may of course be an infection from the brew house but short of introducing a micro biological lab kit we are left for the moment with what in your process could be causing the problem. Any more taste comparisons could be useful as well.

In your original post you said "Water treatment does improve the problem slightly, but not enough. So I'm thinking there must be something else going wrong...". Now I find that intriguing so think you ought to pursue this a little more. What is your water profile and what treatments exactly are you carrying out? If nothing else it gives us an opportunity to rule out excessive mineralisation.

Looking for Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Sulphate, Chloride & Bicarbonate of your water, and then what salts you put into the mash and sparge water and the quantities of water. In PPM.

[9squirrels]

Here's my water:

Calcium 12.7
Magnesium 3
Sodium 9.93
Carbonate 6.6
Sulphate 26.1
Chloride 10.7
ph 7.3

And here's the treatment I used on the initial batch mentioned at the start of this thread (using the "sweet pale ale" setting on GW's water calculator):

32.5 litres (total volume, mash & sparge water))
Calcium sulphate: 7.55g
Calcium chloride: 7.46g
Magnesium sulphate: 3.95
Sodium chloride: 1.66g
+5g calcium carbonate in mash (based on mini-mash experiments aimed at getting my mash ph in the right ballpark)
+5g mix of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride in boil

With the bottled water version, I just added a 5g mix of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride to both the mash and the boil.
(Tesco Ashbeck water, which has lower sulphates and slightly higher carbonate than my tap water, but more or less the same apart from that)

[guypettigrew]

A bit of lateral thinking here.

How about you track down the nearest small brewery to you and see if the brewer there would be willing to taste your latest brew and offer a view on the problems you're struggling with?

Or perhaps find a university doing a brewing course, or your local Cask Marque inspector?

Just some thoughts.

Guy

[mabrungard]

Here's my water:

Calcium 12.7
Magnesium 3
Sodium 9.93
Carbonate 6.6
Sulphate 26.1
Chloride 10.7
ph 7.3

And here's the treatment I used on the initial batch mentioned at the start of this thread (using the "sweet pale ale" setting on GW's water calculator):

32.5 litres (total volume, mash & sparge water))
Calcium sulphate: 7.55g
Calcium chloride: 7.46g
Magnesium sulphate: 3.95
Sodium chloride: 1.66g
+5g calcium carbonate in mash (based on mini-mash experiments aimed at getting my mash ph in the right ballpark)
+5g mix of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride in boil

With the bottled water version, I just added a 5g mix of calcium sulphate and calcium chloride to both the mash and the boil.
(Tesco Ashbeck water, which has lower sulphates and slightly higher carbonate than my tap water, but more or less the same apart from that)

That is a fine water to start with. You are really screwing it up with the additions mentioned here.

The proposed chloride level is far too high for any brewing use. You are also substantially hardening the water with the gypsum, Epsom, and CaCl2 and driving the RA quite low. That might be OK for some beers, but if there is any crystal or roast in that grist, then the mash pH is probably being driven too low. The low alkalinity of that water is not suited to match with the degree of hardening you are performing on that water. Dropping the table salt and CaCL2 down to about 1 gram each will substantially improve the chloride issue. You haven't said what beer you are brewing, but I assume a Pale Ale. The reduction in the gypsum to about 6.4 grams would also help boost the RA and avoid an excessive pH drop.

Aim for somewhere in the 50 ppm range for Cl and avoid bumping the Ca content above 70 to 80 ppm due to your low alkalinity. In many respects, this tap water should be the envy of a lot of UK brewers. Visit the Water Knowledge page on the Bru'n Water website to learn more about what you should be doing.

[orlando]

Looks like Martin has identified the problem. Highlights how useful a pH meter is if you decide to treat your water. The calculator that will help with your fine tuning is available here

[9squirrels]

Interesting. I just assumed GW's water calculator would be correct... Should I stop using it?
Also, that doesn't really explain why I got the same off-flavour with the bottled water batch, which had very little chloride and no Epsom or salt.

The recipe I was using has no crystal or roasted malt in it at all. I think I did post it earlier, but it's been a while since then (!), so here it is:

2kg maris otter / 1.5kg lager malt / 250g wheat malt
60 minute mash at 66 degrees, mash out at 75, batch sparge at 75

90 minute boil
250g demerara sugar
25g Challenger (60 mins)
15g Challenger (30 mins)
15g Challenger (5 mins)
15g Saaz (5 mins)

Size: 21L
Yeast: S-04

[orlando]

Try Martin's calculator. If nothing else even if this turns out to be something else you will benefit from a more accurate water treatment that takes into account the recipe being used. By the way, I made the same assumption about the GW calculator as well.

[Eric]

Anyone fancy reading THIS?
I think they might have a proven track record.

[Swiller]

You mention in early posts that your friends don't taste it, albeit they may not want to offend but I am sure they would be truthful. And your wife can only taste it in a few and not to the same extent. I never listen to SWMBO when it comes to trying my beers It seems the direction you should be looking is may be yourself, I think your perception of taste is changing squirrels. And you have mentioned you have sent back beer in pubs.

To quote from a website :-

The life-span of your taste buds is not dependent on a calendar. Like all cells in your body they regularly 'wear out' and die only to be replaced several days later. The speed with which this happens varies with the eating habits, age and health of the individual concerned. However, on average, you can assume that after roughly seven years, every taste bud in your mouth has regenerated at least once.

Just a thought.

[orlando]

Anyone fancy reading THIS?
I think they might have a proven track record.

I was there last Friday and the subject was water treatment. Confirmed a lot of what is contained on Martin's site. Particularly the need to reduce alkalinity and acid being the most convenient and effective, and of course the suphate:chloride ratio and its affect on different styles. I had my water analysed there on their fancy piece of kit that typically takes 14 minutes to tell you all you need to know. Hopefully Anglian Water won't mess with it too much for awhile, as it is not a cheap thing to do.

The difference with Murphy & Son is they produce AMS, which is a competitor to CRS I think, which is not as helpful if you want to go the individual salt route but a lot more convenient.

[9squirrels]

Crikey , I hope that's not the case!
Fair point though. I have found myself questioning my own taste buds lately.

In the nicest possible way, the friends who've sampled my recent batches are the sort of people who think everything is amazing, so I'm not putting too much weight on their opinions, polite or otherwise. And my wife's more of a lager drinker, so that's probably not much of an indicator either.

The one thing persuading me otherwise is that I've still got a few bottles hanging around from old batches, before this problem started, and they still taste great to me. Plus, my taste hasn't really changed in terms of commercial beers (I've only taken back a couple of pints in pubs - one was definitely off and the other was a really weird-tasting barrel aged beer, which even the bar staff admitted was an acquired taste.)

Think I might follow Guy's suggestion and see if I can get some advice from a local brewery.
I read something about a new brewery opening in Whaley Bridge, which is where my water comes from, so I'll see if I can track them down.

[Eric]

Anyone fancy reading THIS?
I think they might have a proven track record.

I was there last Friday and the subject was water treatment. Confirmed a lot of what is contained on Martin's site. Particularly the need to reduce alkalinity and acid being the most convenient and effective, and of course the suphate:chloride ratio and its affect on different styles. I had my water analysed there on their fancy piece of kit that typically takes 14 minutes to tell you all you need to know. Hopefully Anglian Water won't mess with it too much for awhile, as it is not a cheap thing to do.

The difference with Murphy & Son is they produce AMS, which is a competitor to CRS I think, which is not as helpful if you want to go the individual salt route but a lot more convenient.

Well done on the course Orlando, I'm jealous.
My thrust in that posting was to the liquor analyses at the bottom of the page. If my sums are right, the OP's water for that brew contained 187 ppm calcium, 285 sulphate and 189 chloride excluding the bits added to the mash and boil. I agree with Martin that it would be wise in present circumstances to minimise any added salts, but I can't accept this as a guide to making bad beer good. Murphy's advice for a bitter in that table is 170 ppm calcium, 400 ppm sulphate and 200 ppm chloride, not miles from the water used, while Martin's advised treatment was closer to water suggested for brewing lager. While the grist is a plausible choice for either beer style, I think the demarara sugar, Challenger and SO4 trumps the Saaz into it being a bitter rather than a lager. Are Murphy's really that far off track?

Incidentally, Murphy and Son sell lactic, sulphuric and phosphoric acids. http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/murphyand ... ments.html