rye best bitter?

[Rookie]

A lot of brewers do rye IPAs and rye pale ales with citrusy hops. The thought occured to me that the spice of rye malt woud go good with spicy hops like goldings.
I planted goldings in my back yard last year, got a small amount of hops. I'm hoping to get enough this year to brew a wet hop bitter.

Bone Idle best bitter: three gallons, O G: around 1.044, IBUs: around 30
4 1/2 pounds marris otter
8 ounces carastan malt
6 ounces victory malt
1/8 ounce first gold @ 6.8% to FWH
5/8 ounce first gold for 45 minutes
1/4 ounce first gold for 5 minutes
Wyeast 1275

The plan is to replace the FWH and 5 minute additions with fresh hop goldings, as much as possible.

I was thinking about replacing 1 pound of the M O with 1 pound of rye malt and adding a couple ounces of rye flakes or maybe triticale flakes.
Any thoughts or suggestions?

[crafty john]

Seymour where are you

[seymour]

What do you mean? I don't have much to add here. It sounds utterly delicious to me. Sorta an Avery meets St. Peters thing going on. First Gold or Golding hops, with that subtle sharpness and black peppery bite of rye...yum! Feel free to use even more than 1 pound, if you like.

This is a very different grainbill than suggested, but one of the best beers I've made (in my opinion, and in judged results) was 57% Two-Row Pale, 19% Malted Rye, 19% Unmalted Wheat, 5% Flaked Oats. I highly recommend some late Saaz hops, their aromas compliment the rye perfectly, then a low and slow fermentation using a high-attenuating, neutral strain. Best of luck!

[jimp2003]

I can confirm that rye goes really well with goldings. Last year I brewed a Rye Pale Ale with bundles of EKG in it:

Rye Pale

Original Gravity (OG): 1.068 (°P): 16.6
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol (ABV): 6.95 %
Colour (SRM): 7.6 (EBC): 14.9
Bitterness (IBU): 56.5 (Tinseth)

79.86% Pale Malt
13.31% Rye Malt
3.59% Torrified Wheat
3.23% Crystal

86g Challenger (6.1% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (First Wort)
32g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
54g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
54g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
54g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)


Single step Infusion at 64°C for 75 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 19°C with WLP029 - German Ale/Kolsch


It came out really spicy and hoppy with almost a bit of Belgian character to it.

[seymour]

Oh god that sounds incredible. And Kolsch yeast too?! Very nicely done.

[Rookie]

I can confirm that rye goes really well with goldings. Last year I brewed a Rye Pale Ale with bundles of EKG in it:

Rye Pale

Original Gravity (OG): 1.068 (°P): 16.6
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol (ABV): 6.95 %
Colour (SRM): 7.6 (EBC): 14.9
Bitterness (IBU): 56.5 (Tinseth)

79.86% Pale Malt
13.31% Rye Malt
3.59% Torrified Wheat
3.23% Crystal

86g Challenger (6.1% Alpha) @ 90 Minutes (First Wort)
32g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
54g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil)
54g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
54g East Kent Goldings - A C Hulme (311) Sample No. 185 (5% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)


Single step Infusion at 64°C for 75 Minutes. Boil for 90 Minutes

Fermented at 19°C with WLP029 - German Ale/Kolsch


It came out really spicy and hoppy with almost a bit of Belgian character to it.

That sounds interesting. I hadn't thought of kolsch yeast. I'll have to consider that in the future. But I think this go round I'll stick with the British yeast and hopefully I'll get enough fresh hop goldings to go that route.

[jimp2003]

The Wyeast 1275 looks like a good choice in your recipe - I wouldn't change that either.

The kolsch yeast was some washed slurry from a west coast type IPA which is a style that I like to use that strain in.

[Fido97]

Seymour, your rye recipe looks interesting too. Presume mash at 66c and a standard ale yeast. Late Saaz sounds good but not sure on hops quatities. Have you the full recipe please? Thanks,

[seymour]

SEYMOUR JUNIPER RYE
This is my modernized version of Finnish Sahti. It took several tries to get this recipe where I wanted it, and I know it makes me sound like a boastful asshole, but the final beer was a rare thing of beauty. Crisp and peppery with that primordial citrus/evergreen magic of the juniper tree. Probably tastes even better after a sauna ritual.

5.5 US Gallons = 4.6 Imperial Gallons = 20.8 Litres

MALTS:
57.1% = 6 lbs = 2.72 kg, Pale Malt
19% = 2 lb = 907 g, Wheat Malt (Torrified Wheat would be fine, too)
19% = 2 lb = 907 g, Rye Malt
4.8% = .5 lb = 227 g, Steel-Cut Oats
(I also used 1 lb/454 g Rice Hulls to guard against a sticky mash, but it’s optional. Also added 2 tsp Calcium Carbonate, a handful of freshly cut juniper twigs and crushed berries, and the mash hops to mash tun.)

MASH with a classic DeClerk multi-step schedule, or single temp at 152ºF/66.7ºC for 2 hrs if you must

BOIL 60 MINUTES, add 1 tsp Irish Moss with 15 min remaining

HOPS:
1 oz/28.3 g, Cascade, mash hops
.5 oz/14 g, Cluster, 60 min
.5 oz/14 g, Saaz, 30 min
.5 oz/14 g, Saaz, flame-out, steep until chilled

YEAST:
Dual-strains: Saflager W-34/70 (German lager) & Safbrew WB-06 (German wheat), both believed to be from the Weihenstephan archive, 2 full packets to ensure a quick ferment

I FERMENTED at 64°F/17.8°C for 3-4 days, then 52°F/11.1°C for 3-4 more days, 2 days diacytal rest 63°F/17.2°C, prime with 3/4 cup brown sugar, then stored 1 week at fermentation temperature, another month as cool as possible.

STATS:
OG: 1.054
FG: 1.011
ABV: 5.7%
IBU: 23
COLOUR: 6° SRM/12° EBC

[zgoda]

How this "handful" of juniper came out finally? I tried with 30 gms then 120 gms and still not getting any juniper flavour in finished beer.

[seymour]

How this "handful" of juniper came out finally? I tried with 30 gms then 120 gms and still not getting any juniper flavour in finished beer.

I could definitely taste it, so much so I've been tempted to supplement every beer I make with it. It probably comes down to several things, in my opinion.

1. Some people simply bruise or crush the "berries" which are actually little seed cones. If the berries were purchased from a spice shop, they could be very old and oxidized, no longer capable of producing the desired flavours.
2. There are many cultivars of the juniper tree, but it's the original, ancient, wild Juniperus communis which is used for Sahti, gin, genever, etc. Most modern plants bred as ornamentals won't work as well, nor will the version which grows wild on my side of the pond, which we call Eastern Redcedar (but it's a juniper, not a true cedar.) I actually special-ordered an English Junipercus communis from my plant nursery specifically for this purpose.
3. I find the youngest, lightest green branch tips work the best. I snip-off three or four, maybe about 5 inches long each, then separately, crush 5 or 6 berries.
4. Of course, the juniper shows up best in a lightly coloured, lightly hopped beer. I've tried it in brown beers, but it's easily overpowered.

Best of luck,
-Seymour

[zgoda]

Thank you, Seymour. Next time I'll try with fresh juniper, straight from the hedge.

[Fido97]

Ok thanks Seymour, I didnt realise it was a Sahini (which in fact is next up on my brew list) when you first described it. Your recipe is similar to one I was going to use with the exception of throwing hops in for the mash which I think I will copy to add an interesting twist. Might even try a Kolsch yeast instead as suggested by others.

[seymour]

I just discovered this old thread. Holy crap that sounds good! Check out this 92 ratebeer rating!

Had the pleasure of trying this delicious brew whilst at the Ozzy national homebrew conference last year. Was a truly delicious brew, but apparently a one-off from the brewery. Luckily, one of the brewers divulged all on one of the brewing network shows, and thought I'd slap the recipe on here as I had a shot at it this weekend viewtopic.php?f=24&t=44118

Brewing Network Sunday Session Mountain Goat Brewery
Mountain Goat - Rye IPA (as in ANHC 2010)

GRIST
Traditional ale malt 2row 58%
Rye 20%
Wheat 15%
Pale crystal 7%
Mash@67C
They had horrible 5hr runoff due to rye making horrible gloopiness - do a rest or use rice hulls (or oat husks)

HOPS
Full boil Pride of ringwood 40IBU
10 mins Citra 10ibu
Dry hop with "sh*t load" of Galaxy

No whirlpool, just let sit in kettle for 1/2hr then cooled and transfered

US05 18C - will stink during ferment due to rye, not to worry

SG 13.5plato=1055
FG 3plato=1012

[Fido97]

An update on this - used Seymours recipe (thanks) with some slight adjustments. Had a really nice peppery aroma during the boil from the juniper (I threw in 100g) and loads of late saaz. Anyway I racked it last night after 8 days in the primary and fg down to 1010 as planned. Used the Kolsch yeast. Obviously its too early to draw final conclusions but the early signs are there on tasting, its going to be good-un. Couldn't actually taste much in the way of juniper so poss next time I'll throw in more.