Roggenbier and Weizenbock Extract Recipes?

[zeropanic]

Hi All,

I noticed on the Recipe forums there do not seem to be many Roggenbier and Weizenbock recipes which are extract based, does anyone have any recipe suggestions that I could try out?

Cheers,

Amos

[Rookie]

Hi All,
I noticed on the Recipe forums there do not seem to be many Roggenbier and Weizenbock recipes which are extract based, does anyone have any recipe suggestions that I could try out?
Cheers,
Amos

You'd have to do a partial mash on the roggen. There is a homebrew shop in the States that has a rye extract, but I don't know if it's available in the U K.
You could get an amber extract and mix it with a wheat extract to get a weizenbock.

[zeropanic]

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I'm struggling to get a rye extract in the UK. I know Northern Brewer do a syrup but they don't ship internationally. Briess do a rye extract and quite a few on-line sellers stock other Briess products, but apparently not the rye liquid malt extract.

I think I'd have to steep a very small amount of black malt prior to the boil to get a deeper colour for both beers, perhaps chocolate malt if the black is too strong, I'm aiming for quite a ruby red colour. I had already thought up a recipe with wheat and amber malt extracts, have a look at the following and see what you think?


Weizenbock Recipe Specs
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 4.900
Total Hops (g): 90.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.070 (°P): 17.1
Final Gravity (FG): 1.018 (°P): 4.6
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 6.88 %
Colour (SRM): 20.0 (EBC): 39.4
Bitterness (IBU): 29.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
3.000 kg Liquid Malt Extract - Wheat (61.22%)
1.750 kg Dry Malt Extract - Amber (35.71%)
0.150 kg Black Malt (3.06%)

Hop Bill
50.0 g Tettnanger Pellet (4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (2.2 g/L)
20.0 g Tettnanger Pellet (4% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (0.9 g/L)
20.0 g Tettnanger Pellet (4% Alpha) @ 5 Minutes (Boil) (0.9 g/L)

Misc Bill
5.0 g Irish Moss @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
Wyeast 3068 - Weihenstephan Weizen

Black malt steeped for 30 mins prior to the boil.
Main boil at 66°C for 60 Minutes.


Sorry about the units of measurement if metric isn't your thing.

If I could get rye malt extract then I would try something similar with about 55-60% of the fermentables being rye. Is that reasonable?

Cheers,

Amos

[Rookie]

Northern Brewer has the rye extract made specially for them.
Personally I wouldn't add any roasted malt to the roggen and I think caraffa would be a better choice for the weizenbock, although it wouldn't hurt to not add any dark malt.
The concensus on U S forums is 15-20% rye works very well. Denny Conn, a well known home brewer with a killer rye IPA recipe says he's used more than twice that amount with good results. Versions of Denny's recipe have been brewed by several breweries including one in Finland. He worked with N B to develop the extract they sell.

[zeropanic]

I'll keep looking for any Rye Malt Extract, but I suspect I'll have to wait until I'm set up for full AG brewing before attempting a Roggenbier.

Would the Carafa produce a more pleasing ruby colour then?

I take it Denny's recipes for the Rye-PA have a much higher IBU than the Roggenbier would normally have?

Cheers,

Amos

[zgoda]

Filtration of rye malt heavy mash is real nightmare. If mash temp falls below 70c it immediately stucks, the mash becomes like fluid gum. But every drop of roggenbier is worth this effort.

If you want "rye effect" without much hassles I'd suggest looking for rye flakes, should be available in Polish shops. As small amount as 400 gms gives lovely silky sensation, 1200 gms makes thick beer that pours like an oil.

[bob3000]

150g is way too much. Try about 1/2% maybe 30g.

[zeropanic]

Hi zgoda, is it really such a difficult mash even with the addition of either rice or barley hulls?

Interesting idea with the rye flakes, I keep a look out. Are you suggesting using the flakes in a full mash or are they going to be suitable to steep for an extract brew?

[zeropanic]

An update on finding rye malt extract, Amazon (US) have the Briess product ...

http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Malt-Extra ... ewdea02-20

... unfortunately they don't ship it to the UK

Cheers,

Amos

[zgoda]

Hi zgoda, is it really such a difficult mash even with the addition of either rice or barley hulls?

Interesting idea with the rye flakes, I keep a look out. Are you suggesting using the flakes in a full mash or are they going to be suitable to steep for an extract brew?

Hulls don't help at all, stuck mash is from very high viscosity of wort due to high beta-glucans content of rye. Keeping mash warm during sparge helps to keep viscosity at lower level, but still much higher than in barley or wheat mash so expect way longer filtration. You can feel this viscosity on your tongue in final beer, and even see it when pouring beer into glass.

Flakes do not have any diastatic power so they must be mashed to convert starch. The only alternative to full mash is diastatic malt extract or partial mash (mash flakes with equal amount of some highly diastatic malt, at least pilsner malt or 6-row if diastatic malt is not available).

[zeropanic]

Sounds like a partial mash will have to be the way to go. Would the rye flakes with a little black malt topped up with wheat malt to equal the rye amount work do you think?

[zgoda]

I'd rather use pilsner or pale (but kept long enough to convert starch, check this with iodine). I don't know if wheat malt has enough diastatic power.

[zeropanic]

I did a quick Google and turned up an entry from John Palmer's "How to Brew" in which he says wheat has equal diastatic power compared with barley, so I guess it probably is ok

[Rookie]

I'll keep looking for any Rye Malt Extract, but I suspect I'll have to wait until I'm set up for full AG brewing before attempting a Roggenbier.
Would the Carafa produce a more pleasing ruby colour then?
I take it Denny's recipes for the Rye-PA have a much higher IBU than the Roggenbier would normally have?
Cheers,
Amos

A partial mash of 2 pounds of 2-row and two pounds of rye might work.
I'd use caraffa because it is way less harsh than black malt or roasted barley.
It's definately hopped like you'd expect from a PNW IPA and is more than an actual roggen.

[zeropanic]

Interestingly, from an extract brewing point of view, I've found a Carafa extract which can be used to colour the wort without any overbearing flavours.

http://themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a ... ductId=452

Looks useful to me

Cheers,

Amos