Reducing alkalinity using acid.

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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orlando
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by orlando » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:37 am

orlando wrote:Another brewday another chance to use the mash pH calculator. This time an Amber style beer with an EBC of 13.2 so one of the more difficult styles with my tap water. I was astonished by how accurate it was predicting the mash pH.

This shows the summary of water treatment with the pH prediction.

Image

This shows the meter reading taken at just under 23c.

Image

If it keeps this up I will be very pleased indeed, next stop of course is, has the beer improved? So far there are encouraging signs of fermentation's being a little more vigorous and a little quicker but this is too early and not enough examples to say it is due to the changes. I was disappointed to see that my sparge water was 6.2 rather than the 5.5 targeted but later realised I got my water volumes wrong and actually under acidified as a result. I checked the run off and to my surprise this only went up to 5.6 so hopefully won't have suffered from any excessive tannin extraction.

I said I would update after this brew had peaked and can report that this is by far the best light coloured beer I've brewed, something I have really struggled with. The feedback from others (including my local CBA group) has been the most positive I've received. I put this down to largely, if not wholly, to using the calculator and getting the water treatment right.

So yes Boingy, it is making a difference, a big one.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Goulders
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Goulders » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:26 am

I pitched the yeast yesterday for the IPA that used the Brun calculator.

The biggest lesson for me was provided by WallyBrew in how Ca etc is derived. Previously I had used Graham's calculator and had left the Ca figures blank, not realising this was actually derived from total hardness. I had therefore been putting in far too much gypsum and CaCl in my brews, and the taste wasn't quite right, almost too 'salty'.

Anyway the test will be the taste and so I will report back in a couple of months

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keith1664
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by keith1664 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:13 pm

Am I reading the Bru'n Water site correctly in that I make a donation and then get emailed the supporters version.... if so how long does it take to get it?
In or near Norwich? Interested in meeting up monthly to talk and drink beer? PM me for details.

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Goulders
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Goulders » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:22 pm

within the same day for me

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orlando
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by orlando » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:29 pm

Ditto
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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orlando
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by orlando » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:30 pm

Ditto, he's at his desk right now :wink:
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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keith1664
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by keith1664 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:36 pm

Hopefully it'll show up soon.
In or near Norwich? Interested in meeting up monthly to talk and drink beer? PM me for details.

Dave S
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Dave S » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:52 pm

keith1664 wrote:Hopefully it'll show up soon.
He's pretty good at responding.
Best wishes

Dave

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keith1664
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by keith1664 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:20 pm

I have it.... now to work out how it works!
In or near Norwich? Interested in meeting up monthly to talk and drink beer? PM me for details.

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orlando
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by orlando » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:22 am

It can appear daunting at first but as long as you have an accurate analysis of your source water the rest falls into place reasonably easily. Martin's view is that there is far too much treatment of water, that reducing alkalinity is by far the most important element and that using acid, for us with particularly hard water, is for a lot of styles, the majority of what you need to do with only minor tweaking using salts to get into the ball park of certain geographical locations.

I was particularly struck by a remark I heard at Murphy & Sons. "All water is suitable for brewing, just not every style".
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Aleman
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Aleman » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:44 am

orlando wrote:Martin's view is that there is far too much treatment of water, that reducing alkalinity is by far the most important element and that using acid, for us with particularly hard water, is for a lot of styles
+1
orlando wrote:the majority of what you need to do with only minor tweaking using salts to get into the ball park of certain geographical locations.
I'm not 100% convinced by that, but in most cases the tweaking should only be minor.
orlando wrote:I was particularly struck by a remark I heard at Murphy & Sons. "All water is suitable for brewing, just not every style".
So very true.

Just waiting for Martin to email my copy of the full spreadsheet :D

Matt12398

Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Matt12398 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:12 pm

I also got mine the same day so you should have it imminently.

Using this spreadsheet transformed my beer in the space of one brew. It's amazing how much difference water treatment can make.

It's funny hearing Orlando saying how he's struggling with pales because I'm the opposite, dark beers have never been very good with my soft water.

Are you finding that the predicted pH and actual pH are pretty similar now as I remember you saying yours came out a big higher than predicted?

Dave S
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Dave S » Wed May 01, 2013 1:30 pm

Matt12398 wrote:I also got mine the same day so you should have it imminently.

Using this spreadsheet transformed my beer in the space of one brew. It's amazing how much difference water treatment can make.

It's funny hearing Orlando saying how he's struggling with pales because I'm the opposite, dark beers have never been very good with my soft water.

Are you finding that the predicted pH and actual pH are pretty similar now as I remember you saying yours came out a big higher than predicted?
The last couple of brews, mines come out slightly lower, but nevertheless the improvement in the beer quality is amazing. I'm waiting for an analysis from Murphy's in case my alkalinity results are a bit out.
Best wishes

Dave

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orlando
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by orlando » Wed May 01, 2013 2:11 pm

Matt12398 wrote:I also got mine the same day so you should have it imminently.

Using this spreadsheet transformed my beer in the space of one brew. It's amazing how much difference water treatment can make.

It's funny hearing Orlando saying how he's struggling with pales because I'm the opposite, dark beers have never been very good with my soft water.

Are you finding that the predicted pH and actual pH are pretty similar now as I remember you saying yours came out a big higher than predicted?
In the last post I made showing the 3 important measures they are much more accurate and I believe that this is because I have been a lot more accurate in my measurements and not changed my recipe at the last minute ( #-o ). I have brewed at least 10 times with the calculator now and I've seen enough of it to ensure I will not be brewing without it from now on. Brewing without it saw me using way too much of liquour salts and CRS, in fact the one brew that, immodestly, I thought was truly outstanding was a Porter I brewed with nothing more than table salt added to the brewing liquour.

There are a number of users now (show yourselves, I'd love to know how many) so it will be interesting to hear from any dissenting voices, even if they are criticisms over the way in which you interact with it rather than any errors you believe it to have.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting:
Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

Dave S
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Re: Reducing alkalinity using acid.

Post by Dave S » Wed May 01, 2013 3:16 pm

I as you know am one, Orlando. I hope you'll be keeping count :)

EDIT: By the way, I think the interface is fine, once you get used to it - like most other software really.
Best wishes

Dave

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