Diluting with Distilled water

[Cazamodo]

Been playing with Bru'n Water, and put in what I found on the water report. Although they are all averages so I will try and get it tested at Murphys at some point..

But assuming its not too far off, according to the spreadsheet, for most target profiles I would need to dilute my current water. In fact for the belgian profile im looking to use, I would need to dilute 80% with distilled water!!

would it be easier, to go all out and just brew with 100% distilled water and start from scratch? I think the next step in my brewing is better water treatment, rather than just crs+gypsum. I'm trying to eliminate the naggling 'homebrew' taste from my beers which even in the nicest ones I can still pick out.

Anyway does anyone else build their water profiles from scratch? And also does it greatly increase the cost of each brew?

[mark4newman]

Hi

I use RO water for all my brewing, and build from there. However I use the G strong method or the Aj delange method outlined here.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewin ... er-198460/

Personally I think the acid malt (delange) gives a better flavour than Phosporic acid (G strong), to get the mash PH right, and water treatments (in fact no more than a couple of TSP), I tend to use more of a mix of CAS04 and CaCl) than either of them seem to. (GS seems to like CASO4 and AJ seems to like CACL, but I digress.

As for cost, well I got the RO water filter for about £100 (with pump) and I replace the filters and RO membrane about once a year about £30 IIRC.... As for water about 3litres of tap water give 1 litre of RO water...

(Before this I used Asda smart price water, which is 19P for 2litres, however this didn't make sense when I moved to 100L brews)

Personally I wouldn't go back to my tap water, it varied to much, as was far to high in carbonates..

[mabrungard]

Getting the tap water tested is a good start. But if the source or quality varies, it makes brewing water adjustments tougher. Of course the main factors to have a handle on, are the calcium and alkalinity. The rest of the ion concentrations can typically be assumed to be relatively constant and the effect on the beer will probably be small. The Ca and Alk are critical for mash pH and that can have a significant effect on beer flavor and character.

One advantage of using all or mostly RO/distilled water in brewing, is that the assumed starting water quality should not vary much. However, an important deficiency of RO or distilled water is that it has no alkalinity. In some styles, that is needed to help control mash pH drop. There are techniques to reduce the effects of that potential mash pH drop when using low or no alkalinity water. Strong likes to use the Guinness method in which the roasted grains are steeped separately or added late to the main mash. That helps keep the mash pH of the base malt mash in a desirable range. The problem is that although you produce a good pH during mashing, when the dose of those acidic roast and/or crystal malts are added to the wort, the overall pH of the wort drops lower than desirable. In the case of Guinness Dry Stout, they have crafted a tart taste profile that consumers enjoy. That result may not be ideal for other styles. Another problem with low wort pH is reduced hop expression and bittering. So having the appropriate alkalinity in the mashing water is still important. Having a water source with a known or consistent alkalinity is a great way to add alkalinity when needed in a brew. When that is not available, then lime or baking soda are the best options for adding alkalinity to water.

Thanks for mentioning my esteemed colleague, Dr. Chloride (AJ Delange) with whom I'm working as a technical editor for Mr. Sulfate (Colin Kaminski) and Palmer's book on Water. AJ apparently has a strong aversion to the flavor of sulfate, but he generally makes only European light lagers and that aversion may be well founded for those styles. However, using sulfate judiciously to help dry a beer finish is helpful, even in those light lagers. And it goes without saying that sulfate is imperative for making great hoppy English styles. But when you have high sulfate, you really should moderate the chloride level or the resulting beer flavor can be 'minerally'. That may be something that some drinkers enjoy, but it may not be the most pleasing thing in a hoppy beer.

Mark, it may not be necessary to replace RO membranes yearly. As long as the water production rate is still within specification and the total dissolved solids reading in the product water is low, you can keep using a membrane for much longer than a year. I feed my RO system with ion-exchange softened water, so the membrane won't scale up and plug. But eventually, the TDS value on the product water started to creep upward and I had to replace the membrane. That was about a 2 year life and I use RO for a lot more than brewing. Anyone using RO from their own machine or another source should have a TDS meter so that they can check to see if the water actually has low TDS like its supposed to.

Enjoy!

[Cazamodo]

Thank you, very informative, I'll have a good read of that.

I looked into distilled water, and it looked expensive. However a RO water filter seems like a good investment due to the water here.

Can I just clarify, is its advisable to use my tap water from my water softer in the RO filter. I only ask as I was advised not to use it direct for brewing, but I assume as RO strips almost everything out its not a problem?

[mabrungard]

Yes, using the water from the softener as the feed water to the RO system will extend the life of the membrane. The RO process removes most of the ions, but ions like sodium do make it through the membrane to a slightly greater degree. So you will have a little higher sodium in your product water than if you would if you used unsoftened water. But that only amounts to maybe 5 ppm sodium, so its not anything to be concerned about. The RO water profile that is shown in Bru'n Water is from a lab test on my RO system with its softened water feed.

[Cazamodo]

If I was to start using RO water, would it be an idea to get that tested. I know tap water changes, but as RO is stripping almost everything out, could I then assume that my water profile would stay the same, or at least change by a negligible amount each time I used it.

[orlando]

Thanks for mentioning my esteemed colleague, Dr. Chloride (AJ Delange) with whom I'm working as a technical editor for Mr. Sulfate (Colin Kaminski) and Palmer's book on Water. AJ apparently has a strong aversion to the flavor of sulfate, but he generally makes only European light lagers and that aversion may be well founded for those styles. However, using sulfate judiciously to help dry a beer finish is helpful, even in those light lagers. And it goes without saying that sulfate is imperative for making great hoppy English styles. But when you have high sulfate, you really should moderate the chloride level or the resulting beer flavor can be 'minerally'. That may be something that some drinkers enjoy, but it may not be the most pleasing thing in a hoppy beer.

This passage of your comments represents for me something of the nub of difference between brewers in the States and brewers over here. You will recall on another thread that there was some disagreement concerning the ppm of sulphate to chloride and vice versa depending on style, although the biggest departure is over pale ales/bitters.

You also said in that thread:

"Low to moderate chloride appears to be a key to producing great beer. This is especially true when you want high sulfate in your water for its effects."

You also said:

"...any good hoppy English ale is likely to have a significant sulfate content. Burton water could easily have 600 to 800 ppm sulfate. The big problem comes when chloride and sulfate are at relatively high level. That seems to be the contributor to minerally perceptions."


You may recall Eric saying this; Full quote here.

"CRS is convenient, but I've found supplying calcium in chloride form instead of sulphate still allows the production of pale hoppy beers, in some ways like those available locally in my youth, by modifying the hop schedule and yeast used.

Dark and malty beers I found needed chloride to bring out flavours that can sometimes be made harsh with sulphate. Of course, if you mash with higher residual alkalinity liquor for darker beers, with less CRS providing less salts, extra salt additions may be necessary and that would be in the form of calcium chloride.

Last year the alkalinity dropped dramatically, perhaps due to incessant rain, which meant I used less CRS and so was able to brew with lower chloride and higher sulphate levels. I'm far from convinced that high sulphate, low chloride is good while the opposite isn't."

Simpleone said this:

"I understand the theory. But in practice I have seen something else.
Add gypsum to water or beer, get minerally taste. Add CRS to drop alkalinity, no minerally taste. Have too much SO4 in source water, no minerally taste.
That's whether the water profile is mineral rich or mineral poor. Whether the SO4 vs. Cl is balanced or not.
Add the equivalent amount of Calcium Chloride, you tend to get a less affect."

Is it just a question of "taste" or is there a real issue here? Murphy's for example are less worried about the levels and preach that the ratios are more important. If crookedeyeboy reads this please feel free to finesse any clumsy remarks.

[WallyBrew]

Is it just a question of "taste" or is there a real issue here? Murphy's for example are less worried about the levels and preach that the ratios are more important. If crookedeyeboy reads this please feel free to finesse any clumsy remarks.

The following is by David G Taylor from the chapter on water he contributed to "Handbook of Brewing" CRC press.

"Chloride: Sulfate Balance

Many authors (e.g., Refs. 1, 19,22,23) refer to the importance of the chloride to sulfate balance. From the previous discussion about chloride and sulfate, it can be seen that the relative flavor effects of these ions are somewhat antagonistic. In an attempt to quantify this point, it has been shown that increasIng the Cl to SO4 ratio from 1:1 to 2:1 (on a mg/I basis) achieved increased taste panel scores for body and sweetness, with commensurate reduction in drying, bitter, and metallic flavors. In contrast, when the Cl to SO4 ratio was changed from 1:1 to 1:2, the increased sulfate content achieved reduced body and sweetness, but increased bitterness and drying flavors.

These effects are repeatable at different absolute concentrations of chloride and sulfate. It appears that, in many cases, it is the relative ratio of the two ions that has the major flavor influence, often irrespective of the accompanying cations."

[mark4newman]

Hi Martin

You are right my ro membrane would last a couple of years. However, I just find it easier to change it all once a year.

Orlando

I've used murphys water treatment recommendations for me. However, I did get an improvement when using asda smart price. And now using ro water. For me I find the ratio to sulphate to chlorine is important, but also low levels of Tds also improves the beer.

So, I would agree the ratio is very important, however if that is correct the low levels of tds will be a better beer than the ones with high levels.