Reducing alkalinity using acid.

[keith1664]

Reading the instructions would've helped... but then that's not the first thing you do late on a Friday night after a "couple"!

[mabrungard]

I asked Paul Taylor about why there was no sodium report, this was his reply "On the same note we don’t test for sodium (presently) as there is no need. Sodium mainly comes from salt and even if we add salt to a porter or stout you would only ever measure sodium for its calorific value.". He doesn't worry about potassium either citing similar reasons, they are only trace elements and just not that important. He feels water treatment is way too over complicated. Calcium, chloride and magnesium are the most important for him along with the sulphate chloride ratio.

Mr. Taylor may be quite correct with respect to the typical UK waters. The sodium level typical in those waters may be inconsequential to brewing. However, there can be plenty of cases where it is important...and that is anytime that its over about 50 ppm. Its not really a concern at that level, but a brewer should understand that they may not want to add sodium since moving into the 100+ ppm range is where you can start to have negative flavor effects. This especially true when the sulfate content is also elevated.

Here in the US, there are plenty of places with Na content above 50 ppm. On top of that, any house that has an ion-exchange water softener is likely to have elevated Na content in the water. So the need to test for Na may not be so trivial.

Water treatment does not have to be that complicated. However, I diverge from Mr. Taylor's concerns. There are other ions that can cause problems. I also caution against Murphy's apparent approach to water treatment where they recommend adding more ions to already minerally water to make it "better" for brewing. Sometimes you can't get there from here.

For those using Murphy's water reports, about the best you can do is assume that the sodium content in your water is equal to the value you have to enter to make the ions balance. That should be close enough.

[orlando]

Although I haven't seen it yet the latest Beersmith video is about brewing water and will no doubt draw heavily on John Palmer's latest book that Martin has consulted on so should be of interest to many.

[Cpt.Frederickson]

I've just made my donation and eagerly awaiting using this later in the week. And hopefully I'll have some Phosphoric acid by then, too. Was looking at another thread where people had been looking at sourcing Sulphuric, anyone had any success with this?

[Cpt.Frederickson]

No joy after researching sulphuric. Seemed like a lot of hassle!
So got some phosphoric and some RO water (as I'm in a hard water area - 1/3rd dilution) and came up with this rough profile for a hoppy american amber;
Ca - 112
Mg - 16.5
Sodium - 20
SO4 - 182
Cl - 46
HCO3 - 36
Any thoughts on this? Aiming to brew Friday...

[orlando]

No joy after researching sulphuric. Seemed like a lot of hassle!
So got some phosphoric and some RO water (as I'm in a hard water area - 1/3rd dilution) and came up with this rough profile for a hoppy american amber;
Ca - 112
Mg - 16.5
Sodium - 20
SO4 - 182
Cl - 46
HCO3 - 36
Any thoughts on this? Aiming to brew Friday...

I wouldn't worry about that, Sulphuric acid not only adds sulphate ions but also gives off vapours that are unpleasant (can damage lungs and skin). Phosphoric is a better bet in my view, although still needs to be handled with extreme care at high concentration. Something that I like to keep an eye on is the sulphate/chloride ratio. You want a hoppy beer (do you mean aroma or bitterness?) and the bias towards sulphate increases the bitterness perception. However, it still depends on the recipe so difficult to judge with just the treatment information. I would be wary of having a ratio much higher than 2:1 for this style so would revisit this, again depending on the IBU content of your hopping charge. Go to the water adjustment tab and take a look at cell N13. Martin would also advocate keeping chloride to no more than 100 ppm, so you might dilute just a little more, something I haven't done to date so nearly always exceed this myself

I think everything else looks reasonable but there are some real experts on here following this thread so I would wait for other comments as well.

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Should/ve mentioned. It's Jamil Zanisheff's Evil Twin I'm basing it on, but lower strength. The recipe is on his PDF about late hopping that he publishes on Mr.Malty.
Now I think about it I may tweak everything back a bit for this one, let some of the maltiness come through. My main concern is making sure the hop flavour is strong in this one.
Usually I make pales, hence thinking of ways to boost SO4 and keep Cl down. Seems I should be able to get by though, the more I've played around with the spreadsheet the more I've learned. A fantastic tool for the discerning brewer.

[barneey]

I wouldn't worry about that, Sulphuric acid not only adds sulphate ions but also gives off vapours that are unpleasant (can damage lungs and skin). Phosphoric is a better bet in my view, although still needs to be handled with extreme care at high concentration.

It all depends on what your trying to add / take away, Phosphoric for me doesn't give a good result , whereas Sulphuric does / will Just need the brewery built to test the 2.5M acid + could never seem to get Martins program working correctly with the sulphuric acid "M - %" function (probably user error on my part?), still need to test the latest update.

Cheers

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Did you manage to get hold of some sulphuric then Barneey? I could only find super concentrated stuff so was all a bit scary, but i'm having to be a bit creative using the phosphoric. If you have any dilute sulphuric I'd happily trade for some!

[barneey]

With the help and thanks of another member I was able to source a sample bottle of 2.5M Acid, I plan to use it on a tried and test recipe to see if the acid adjustment makes a difference, no point in trying it on a new recipe as taste wise I have nothing to compare it to, (albeit brewing a like for like batch without changing anything IMHO is a difficult enough thing to do). If I like the result I will continue the quest to find a permanent supplier. Ether that or the RO water system will be finally used.

Cheers

[Dave S]

I wouldn't worry about that, Sulphuric acid not only adds sulphate ions but also gives off vapours that are unpleasant (can damage lungs and skin). Phosphoric is a better bet in my view, although still needs to be handled with extreme care at high concentration.

It all depends on what your trying to add / take away, Phosphoric for me doesn't give a good result , whereas Sulphuric does / will Just need the brewery built to test the 2.5M acid + could never seem to get Martins program working correctly with the sulphuric acid "M - %" function (probably user error on my part?), still need to test the latest update.

Cheers

Martin's spreadsheet had an error in the 'M' calculation for H2SO4. He's corrected it in the Supporters' version, so if you have that you should have received the update.

[Dave S]

With the help and thanks of another member I was able to source a sample bottle of 2.5M Acid, I plan to use it on a tried and test recipe to see if the acid adjustment makes a difference, no point in trying it on a new recipe as taste wise I have nothing to compare it to, (albeit brewing a like for like batch without changing anything IMHO is a difficult enough thing to do). If I like the result I will continue the quest to find a permanent supplier. Ether that or the RO water system will be finally used.

Cheers

I found some on Amazon which claims to be 98%. I'm hesitant to use it until I see a data sheet which I've requested. It was incredibly cheap @ £7.50 for 500ml, which also makes me a bit jittery. If I don't get the data sheet I may just use it as drain cleaner.

Barneey, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know if/when you find a reputable supplier, and I will do likewise if I find one.

[barneey]

Martin's spreadsheet had an error in the 'M' calculation for H2SO4. He's corrected it in the Supporters' version, so if you have that you should have received the update.

If thats the case I`m glad I waited a while to use acid , I`ll have to check out the update later.

I`m still looking for a supplier, but in the meantime I want to try out this sample acid with a few recipies.

Cheers

[orlando]

Hold back just a little longer with that as there are a couple of revisions that he is working on that involve more than just acid.

[sllimeel]

Hold back just a little longer with that as there are a couple of revisions that he is working on that involve more than just acid.

Just emailed him re the new update, so will wait if it is still being updated!