Warsteiner

[Barley Water]

Perfect set up you have there. The best solution I have seen for lagering is a chest freezer fitted with a temperature controller, especially if you keg. If I had that much vertical cool space to ferment I believe I would save up my pennies and get a 15 gallon conical fermentor. How nice would it be to be able to pull the yeast out of the fermented beer by just opening up the bottom port on the fermenter? Alas, my wife took advantage of me in a moment of weakness (actually twice) and now I have two female children which take care of much of my disposible income........oh the heartache of lust.

[mysterio]

Hi guys I thought I would chip in about dedicated brewing fridges when it comes to brewing lager’s. If you can get a brewing fridge set up with heating and cooling then you can make some great lagers, better still if you can get 2 temperature controlled brewing fridges you can ferment in one and then lager in the second one which is what I am currently doing with my latest 10 gallon batch of lager

First brewing fridge with temperature control for the initial fermentation



Second brewing fridge to lager in



Cheers DC

Problem is...where do you lager the second batch whilst the first is still lagering? :/

[seymour]

...Problem is...where do you lager the second batch whilst the first is still lagering? :/

He could simply drop the temperature in fridge #2 when the time comes to shift from primary fermentation to lagering, right?

The bigger question here is, if he's got those cycling through continuously, how on earth does one drink that much beer?

[ArmChair]

What's the oranges for DC?

[DC]

Hi guys, to answer Mysterios question their both the same batch of lager first pic was it fermenting in brewing fridge 1 pic 2 shows it in fridge 2 lagering after racking. Fridge 1 now has an Imperial IPA fermenting in it.

As for the lemons not oranges, there in the fridge to absorb a strange odour in the fridge that would not shift after cleaning and sterilising, but the lemons seem to have gotten rid of the odour !

Cheers DC

[malc]

Nothing sad about that. Historic "Bohemia" is in the modern-day Czech Republic. You got the right stuff. As long as you've got good temperature-controlled fermentation, it doesn't get more authentic than that!

Happy brewing, mate!

I was going to ferment at room temp, 20c? I can use a fishtank heater?

Wait, what? Are you messing with me?

For lager brewing, you need a dedicated fridge with a thermostat (or wintry Bohemian cave, whichever is more convenient) and a process along these lines:

Primary fermentation at 7-12°C for 1-3 weeks,
then rise to 13-15.5°C for 1-2 days diacetyl rest,
then cool back down for lengthy lagering period:
3-4 weeks at 7°C, or
5-6 weeks at 4°C, or
7-8 weeks at 2°C.
If you don't have this capability, then you won't be cloning Warsteiner Pilsener, you'll be brewing a MUCH fruitier golden ale. Needless to say, that's why most of us don't produce lagers.

Hi I'm just doing my first lager, your comments above caught my attention, at what stage would you take you fg reading? And would you rack to secondary before lagering? Looking at your time scales the colder the temp the longer the process?

Cheers
Malc

[seymour]

For lager brewing, you need a dedicated fridge with a thermostat (or wintry Bohemian cave, whichever is more convenient) and a process along these lines:

Primary fermentation at 7-12°C for 1-3 weeks,
then rise to 13-15.5°C for 1-2 days diacetyl rest,
then cool back down for lengthy lagering period:
3-4 weeks at 7°C, or
5-6 weeks at 4°C, or
7-8 weeks at 2°C.
If you don't have this capability, then you won't be cloning Warsteiner Pilsener, you'll be brewing a MUCH fruitier golden ale. Needless to say, that's why most of us don't produce lagers.

Hi I'm just doing my first lager, your comments above caught my attention, at what stage would you take you fg reading? And would you rack to secondary before lagering? Looking at your time scales the colder the temp the longer the process?

Cheers
Malc

I don't usually take a final gravity reading until I hope it's really done, but that's more about laziness than any "best-practice." There's more to be learned it you record your gravities several times along the way, as long as you're very careful about sanitation each time. Yes, definitely rack to secondary, but be sure to transfer a little yeast too, since there's more work to be done in the lagering period. Yes, the colder the temperature, the cleaner and crisper the finish, but the longer it takes, because just like you and me, yeast metabolism is less efficient at very low temps.

[mysterio]

Can I suggest a cheat's method of making lager. I took a bronze at the international beer challenge with a Vienna with this method:

Focus on the initial primary fermentation. Get a good German lager yeast, make an enormous starter using a stir plate using step-ups (http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitc ... alculator/)

Fill the headspace with oxygen and shake the living daylights out of your fermenter for 5 minutes (take a break and come back to it if you need to). Pitch and ferment cold (7C), don't worry about pitching the next morning and letting your fridge bringing the wort down to pitching temp.

For the last portion of fermentation, the last 10-5 OG points, increase the temperature to 15C and leave for a week. Keg, bring to room temperature and leave for another couple of days. Essentially i'm looking to max out the yeast metabolism at this stage. Smell and taste the beer, the biggest tell tale signs of incomplete maturation will be buttery or sharp aromas of diacetyl/acetaldehyde. After this, drop the keg to -1C (lagering is just a physical process to precipitate polyphenols and clarify the beer at this phase). Serve in two weeks. I have even just lagered for a few days and made a 'zwickel' using this method - it's still clean as a whistle and delicious. If you're cutting the lagering time by so much then I suggest you keep the carbonation on the lower side as the finished beer will seem smoother.

Flies in the face of brewing text but it works, and good if you're impatient.

[malc]

Thanks for the info guys

I used wlp830 german lager yeast, but as the brew was spur of the moment (i normally brew ales and stouts) I didn't make a starter and just pitched the purchased amount, it took a couple of days to get going and will be two weeks by the weekend. it's down to 1.016 from 1.046 I've just raised the temp to 15 deg so will rack to a clean Fv at the weekend.
Think ill try the longer version this time round, but have six kegs to fill, so may invest in a chest freezer

Thanks again guys

[Barley Water]

Well I hope you won't learn the hard way Malc but just pitching a tube usually ain't gonna get it with lagers. When you pitch the yeast into the wort, the first thing that happens is that the yeast will multiply (and you won't necessarily see any action at all) generally referred to as the lag phase. When they do that in conjection with building up their cell walls they produce all kinds of nasty stuff. Some of that stuff will get cleaned up later however some will not. One of the two major reasons to pitch alot of yeast when doing lagers is to reduce this as much as possible. The other thing that can happen (and has happened to me before I "saw the light") is that the beer will end up being under-attenuated.

If you are making a German pils you want the beer dry and crisp. If you don't pitch enough yeast the beer will come off heavy, somewhat sweet and will taste "flabby" if that makes any sense. Generally speaking, most German beers are well attenuated so pitching alot of yeast is an absolute must. As a point of reference, I did a Dortumunder Export a couple of weeks ago and pitched 3/4 of a gallon starter (well ok the yeast at the bottom of the starter) into a 5 gallon batch. One thing I always try to do is make two lagers back to back so I can use the yeast off the first beer one the second one (and I did a Vienna lager this last weekend using the same yeast). Not only do you save money by avoiding purchasing two tubes of yeast but you also don't need to make two starters (and brew the lower gravity beer first by the way). If you read the stuff that the "Great Jamil" puts out, he always stresses pitching enough yeast and he is a homebrewing "God", at least on this side of the pond.

[malc]

I'm slightly worried now, think I'll taste my next hydrometer test! I also have a tube of wlp838 southern german lager yeast,and intend starting another one soon, should I pitch my slurry from this one and compare the two hoping that yeast is ok, or make a new starter from my fresh tube?
Cheers

[Barley Water]

Oh I think you will be ok doing your next batch with the yeast in the batch you are currently fermenting, you could look at this batch as a giant starter.

Frankly (and I don't want to be a "Debbie Downer" or anything but) if you started with 1.046 wort and you are still at 1.016 then you are likely looking at an under-attenuated beer now. My first suggestion would be to increase the temperature and perhaps rouse the yeast; that may get things going enough to drop the gravity where is should be. If that doesn't work my next suggestion would be to get some dry yeast (mostly because it's cheaper), make a small starter and pitch it into your beer once the starter is going really good. I'm afraid that if you just toss the yeast in there it will just fall out and not help out much. Of course, if you do that I wouldn't use the yeast cake on another beer because then you will be effectively using a mixed culture.

Just a couple other suggestions for the future. If you are not adding O2 when you pitch the yeast you might look into that, it helps. Secondly, I always taste the beer when I rack it into secondary or into a keg. If you are under-attenuated or have some other issue (like diacetyl for instance) you will pick up on that and sometimes you can correct the situation. If it turns out that this batch doesn't come out the way you want, don't feel bad. I made this particular error several times myself before I figured out what was going on. Lagers are just a bit more difficult to brew than ales for this reason and light lagers (pils, Helles etc) are even more difficult. Look at it this way, if your lager education cost you only one batch that is a cheap education. I know one moron from Texas who paid a much heavier price than that.

[malc]

Well guys kegged it yesterday it reached 1.010 in the end. It tasted ok so not a write off should I now leave it pressurised for a couple of weeks?

I also started a cider today should I follow the same lagering process or is it fine with a cider?

Thanks for your help guys

[seymour]

Well guys kegged it yesterday it reached 1.010 in the end. It tasted ok so not a write off should I now leave it pressurised for a couple of weeks?

Sounds good, nice work. The pressurized thing is up to you, how you like it served, etc.

I also started a cider today should I follow the same lagering process or is it fine with a cider?

I've never heard of lagered cider, but I'm intrigued. I imagine if you repitch the lager yeast it's a worthwhile experiment. Lagering is a description of the yeast strain (Saccharomyces pastorianus, formerly Saccharomyces carlsbergensis) and fermentation technique, not really a description of the fermentable ingredients (which varies quite widely by recipe).

But to answer your exact question, cider is typically fermented with a standard Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast strain, same as ale, wine, mead, baking, etc. This type of yeast does not need to be lagered, in fact most of these strains shut-down entirely at such cold temperatures, so you'd get no benefit from all your waiting. I think most people just ferment cider "quick-and-dirty" at ambient temperatures, and drink it relatively fresh. Hey cider-makers, as always, correct me if I'm wrong.