Trying out with Sulphuric acid

[Cpt.Frederickson]

I've just stumbled across this thread researching sulphuric for the same reasons as barneey. Being in Kent our water profiles are pretty similar, so Sulphuric sounded, in principle, an excellent solution. But this seems a little more involved than I thought!
I know Martin has encouraged people to use alternatives to CRS, but now I see why most don't...this can get confusing quite quickly.
Anyways, being a man of little chemical knowledge I wondered if anyone thinks [edit - link deleted so not to mislead] this is a viable alternative?
Or if you can recommend a source for sulphuric acid?

[mabrungard]

No. Sulphamic acid is not the same. Sulfuric (sulphuric) acid is what is included in the Bru'n Water calculators. Updates to the acid calculators are almost complete.

Do research what acid grades are acceptable for use in food and beverages. In the US, Reagent, FCC, and USP grades are acceptable for use in foodstuff. Don't get a low-grade acid since it could easily have heavy metals and other contaminants in it.

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Thanks for the clarification Martin. Back to the drawing board!
Picked up some phosphoric in the mean time (and thats definitely food grade) so will have to do without the additional sulphates for the time being at least.

We are of course in Europe so ACS and FCC don't apply we have AnalaR, AristaR, GPR, Normapure etc, E numbers and lots of other exciting bits of legislation so:

Sulphuric acid does not have an E number so perhaps its not accepted for food use by the EU

anyway from foreign lands the FCC (food chemicals codex) gives

Identification - responds to test for sulphate
Assay - not less than minimum or within range of Be° or the % of H2SO4, claimed or implied by the vendor (note that Be is baume and not beryllium)
Arsenic - not more than 3mg/kg
Chloride - not more than 0.005%
Heavy metals - not more than 0.002%
iron - not more than 0.02% (this was sent to me by someone from work - 200mg/kg seems a lot
Lead - not more than 5mg/kg
Nitrate - not more than 10mg/kg
Reducing substances - (as SO2) passes test
Selenium - not more than 0.002%

or as we are in Europe

From the british and european pharmacopoeia
Sulphuric Acid (concentrated)
(Ph Eur monograph 1572)
DEFINITION
Content 95.0 per cent m/m to 100.5 per cent m/m.
Appearance Colourless, oily liquid, very hygroscopic.
Solubility Miscible with water and with ethanol (96 per cent) producing intense heat.
Relative density About 1.84.

Chlorides Maximum 50 ppm
Nitrates passes test
Arsenic Maximum 1 ppm
Iron Maximum 25 ppm.
Heavy metals Maximum 5 ppm as Pb


Below are the two other acids most commonly used

Phosphoric acid E338
max limits for 75%

volatile acids - 10mg/kg as acetic acid
chlorides - 200mg/kg as Cl
Nitrates - 5mg/kg as sodium nitrate
Sulphates - 1,500mg/kg as calcium sulphate
Fluoride - 10mg/kg as F
Arsenic - 3mg/kg as As
Cadmium - 1mg/kg as Cd
Lead - 4mg/kg as Pb
Mercury - 1mg/kg as Hg


Hydrochloric acid E507
max limits for assay not less than 35g/100g HCl

Total organic compounds - non fluorine containing 5mg/kg
- benzene 0.05mg/kg
- fluorinated compounds 25mg/kg
Non volatile matter - 0.5g/100g
Reducing substances as sulphur dioxide - 70mg/kg
Oxidising substances as chlorine - 30mg/kg
Sulphate = 0.5g/100g
Iron - 5mg/kg as Fe
Arsenic - 1mg/kg as As
Lead - 1mg/kg as Pb
Mercury - 1mg/kg as Hg

Looking at this, am I right in thinking that this suggests some of the acids we had been talking about are actually ok?
And if so, I would happily split a bottle with someone, provided they can do the diluting (or has a pet lab tech somewhere who could)

[Cpt.Frederickson]

See here.

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Murphy's suggest "At around 8.5ml per 25 lts of water to be treated you will reduce the alkalinity by around 100ppm and boost the Sulphate by 99.4ppm."
I've tried putting the info into Bru'n Water, but the results seem vastly different.
This is a worry...

[WallyBrew]

Try entering the strength as 2.94 molar, or 5.88 normal - depends on whether you have the updated (possibly correct version)
And....... if it neutralises 100 of calcium carbonate then the sulphate addition will be 96 not 99.4

[orlando]

Dave, I think your mad, when Phosphoric is an acid that you have used, presumably with success, why would you want to mess with this and/or Hydrochloric. I only had to read about them to put me off. I look like something out of a science fiction movie when I handle the phosphoric as it is.

[Dave S]

Dave, I think your mad, when Phosphoric is an acid that you have used, presumably with success, why would you want to mess with this and/or Hydrochloric. I only had to read about them to put me off. I look like something out of a science fiction movie when I handle the phosphoric as it is.

I know, you're probably right. It gives me the hee-be-geebies thinking about it. I just like the idea of being able to adjust the sulphates at the same time. I haven't taken the plunge yet. And yes my beer has improved by several factors since using phosphoric. My still consign the H2SO4 to drain cleaner

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Cheers Wallybrew. Out of interest, what is the molarity of Brupaks phosphoric? Was thinking about diluting it to a weaker solution with some distilled water. Working on the formula 'desired % x desired volume / current % = total acid required' but the acid additions to my total brewing water for a 3% phosphoric solution seem really low still. Which is weird because my water is pretty damn hard!

[WallyBrew]

Cheers Wallybrew. Out of interest, what is the molarity of Brupaks phosphoric? Was thinking about diluting it to a weaker solution with some distilled water. Working on the formula 'desired % x desired volume / current % = total acid required' but the acid additions to my total brewing water for a 3% phosphoric solution seem really low still. Which is weird because my water is pretty damn hard!

If it is 85%w/w then it should be 14.6 molar.

If you are using Bru'n Water I would not use this acid at any strength other than 85%. Stray from this at your own risk.

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Why's that Wallybrew? My understanding of water treatment is still a little limited!
Orlando reckons that its 75%, according to communications he has had with Brupaks.
So when I put my water profile in (I'm diluting 50/50 with RO water to make sure I can balance the additions well) the amount is so small its hard to measure accurately. For a pale its asking for 2.24ml for 28 litres! I figured diluting would make it easier to measure the amount without so much impact from over or under measuring?

[Aleman]

I select the acid depending on the flavour ions I want in the liquor at the end, so that could well be Sulphuric or Hydrochloric, I'm not a great fan of phosphoric, especially in hard water areas, as it will impart a 'soda water' taste to the beer . . . and I can pick it up. Round here for the vast majority of the time I can get away with it as my alkalinity is so low it doesn't matter.

I guess I am lucky in that I can have my acid solutions made up 'analytically' So I know what strength they are, and my spreadsheet works the additions out correctly

The 5L container of Murphys Phosphoric I have in the shed is 75%, and when I am using it I normally dilute it 1 in 100 which I do think is a good idea to make measuring easier . . . for calculation purposes I think WB means use 75%/85% just for the calc in BrunWater . . . until the latest release is available. So if BrunWater says 2.84ml . . . make up 1L of Acid solution by adding 10ml of conc acid TO 990ml of water (pref deionised) . . and then measure 284ml of the dilute solution and add that to the liquor, throw the remaining dilute solution away do not store it for later use.

ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER AND NEVER, BUT NEVER THE OTHER WAY ROUND!!!!!

[WallyBrew]

Why's that Wallybrew? My understanding of water treatment is still a little limited!
Orlando reckons that its 75%, according to communications he has had with Brupaks.
So when I put my water profile in (I'm diluting 50/50 with RO water to make sure I can balance the additions well) the amount is so small its hard to measure accurately. For a pale its asking for 2.24ml for 28 litres! I figured diluting would make it easier to measure the amount without so much impact from over or under measuring?

If it is 75% (assuming the 75% is w/w) then it should be 12.04 molar. Try entering both as the strength and see if you get the same figures for both.

If what you are doing is diluting your acid by a factor say 1/10 and using the original strength of the acid in the calculator so that you adjust the quantity of acid required by the factor (for a 1/10 dilution it would obviously be 10 times as much) then that is OK

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Ah, that's a much better plan! Thank you both.

If it is 75% (assuming the 75% is w/w) then it should be 12.04 molar. Try entering both as the strength and see if you get the same figures for both.

I did as you suggested and there is some room for error; when I input as 75% mash pH is 5.40, but when I change the molarity it is 5.45. Not a huge variance, given, but still...
Sent an email to Brupaks asking they confirm concentration/strength with units specified.
Anyways, 1:10 solution sounds like a plan.
Just so I'm clear (I can be a total thicky with anything mathematical) 1:10 would be 10ml acid to 90ml water, then add 10x the amount specified at normal concentration. So 2.24ml of 75% phosphoric would be 22.4ml of the diluted?

Sorry for the silly questions, but as it is acid like to be sure!

[WallyBrew]

Just so I'm clear (I can be a total thicky with anything mathematical) 1:10 would be 10ml acid to 90ml water, then add 10x the amount specified at normal concentration. So 2.24ml of 75% phosphoric would be 22.4ml of the diluted?

Sorry for the silly questions, but as it is acid like to be sure!

Strictly speaking it should be 10mL diluted to a volume of 100mL but 10mL added to 90 may be easier even if it's not strictly correct. And yes 2.24 becomes 22.4