Trying out with Sulphuric acid

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Cheers WallyBrew. Can't wait to get another brew on, hopefully this time I can really nail it!

[Cpt.Frederickson]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile.
However, the ideal solution may be using a combination of acids...
What I'm suggesting is using Sulphuric (25%, from Murphy's) to a given sulphate value combined with my liquor salt additions and then reducing the pH further as needed with phosphoric.
My question is, how do I go about calculating this? I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

[Dave S]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile.
However, the ideal solution may be using a combination of acids...
What I'm suggesting is using Sulphuric (25%, from Murphy's) to a given sulphate value combined with my liquor salt additions and then reducing the pH further as needed with phosphoric.
My question is, how do I go about calculating this? I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

You should be able to get it down using either more acid or more gypsum/chloride. Don't know about using combinations of different acids though. Seems a bit unnecessary to me.

But it's interesting to know that Murphy's supply sulphuric though.

[orlando]

Since switching to Phosphoric, I've been getting on ok especially as I've been diluting with RO water to help me reach the right profile.
However, the ideal solution may be using a combination of acids...
What I'm suggesting is using Sulphuric (25%, from Murphy's) to a given sulphate value combined with my liquor salt additions and then reducing the pH further as needed with phosphoric.
My question is, how do I go about calculating this? I'm using Bru'n Water at the mo and getting the pH down to about 5.55, but want it about 5.3.

You should be able to get it down using either more acid or more gypsum/chloride. Don't know about using combinations of different acids though. Seems a bit unnecessary to me.

I agree, water treatment can be complicated enough without all of the above. As for "soda water" flavour from phosphoric acid, that is news to me, I must be "blind" to that as my palate has not detected it, has yours?

[Dave S]

Not at all. In fact, since using phosphoric, (and correct additions of salts) I haven't noticed any tastes other than those intended.

[mabrungard]

Although the Cpt has already emailed me directly, I'll comment here for posterity.

Now that the acid calculations in the Bru'n Water program have finally been fixed (chemistry is actually hard), you can use the bicarbonate result to produce equivalent outcomes when multiple acids are used. First, use one of the acids in Bru'n Water and figure out the dose needed to bring the mash pH to your intended target. Record the negative bicarbonate value that this acid dose produces (I'll call this the Total negative bicarbonate). Then switch to the 'flavor' acid you want to use (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and figure out the dose you want in order to achieve a certain concentration (sulfate in the case of sulfuric acid, chloride in the case of hydrochloric) and then observe the negative bicarbonate value that the 'flavor' dose produces. Then go back to the original acid and reduce its dose so that the sum of the negative bicarbonate from the original acid and flavor acid doses equal the Total negative bicarbonate value. You now have the doses for the acids. This can be used for multiple acids if you are so inclined.

By the way, combinations of citric, malic, acetic, etc, acids are not unthinkable. There could be flavor effects that you want in your beer and little additions of any acids may be a way of including those effects in your beer.

[Dave S]

Although the Cpt has already emailed me directly, I'll comment here for posterity.

Now that the acid calculations in the Bru'n Water program have finally been fixed (chemistry is actually hard), you can use the bicarbonate result to produce equivalent outcomes when multiple acids are used. First, use one of the acids in Bru'n Water and figure out the dose needed to bring the mash pH to your intended target. Record the negative bicarbonate value that this acid dose produces (I'll call this the Total negative bicarbonate). Then switch to the 'flavor' acid you want to use (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and figure out the dose you want in order to achieve a certain concentration (sulfate in the case of sulfuric acid, chloride in the case of hydrochloric) and then observe the negative bicarbonate value that the 'flavor' dose produces. Then go back to the original acid and reduce its dose so that the sum of the negative bicarbonate from the original acid and flavor acid doses equal the Total negative bicarbonate value. You now have the doses for the acids. This can be used for multiple acids if you are so inclined.

By the way, combinations of citric, malic, acetic, etc, acids are not unthinkable. There could be flavor effects that you want in your beer and little additions of any acids may be a way of including those effects in your beer.

Curiouser and curiouser!

[orlando]

Although the Cpt has already emailed me directly, I'll comment here for posterity.

Now that the acid calculations in the Bru'n Water program have finally been fixed (chemistry is actually hard), you can use the bicarbonate result to produce equivalent outcomes when multiple acids are used. First, use one of the acids in Bru'n Water and figure out the dose needed to bring the mash pH to your intended target. Record the negative bicarbonate value that this acid dose produces (I'll call this the Total negative bicarbonate). Then switch to the 'flavor' acid you want to use (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and figure out the dose you want in order to achieve a certain concentration (sulfate in the case of sulfuric acid, chloride in the case of hydrochloric) and then observe the negative bicarbonate value that the 'flavor' dose produces. Then go back to the original acid and reduce its dose so that the sum of the negative bicarbonate from the original acid and flavor acid doses equal the Total negative bicarbonate value. You now have the doses for the acids. This can be used for multiple acids if you are so inclined.

By the way, combinations of citric, malic, acetic, etc, acids are not unthinkable. There could be flavor effects that you want in your beer and little additions of any acids may be a way of including those effects in your beer.

Curiouser and curiouser!

But my names not Alice, way too complicated for me.

[Dave S]

Although the Cpt has already emailed me directly, I'll comment here for posterity.

Now that the acid calculations in the Bru'n Water program have finally been fixed (chemistry is actually hard), you can use the bicarbonate result to produce equivalent outcomes when multiple acids are used. First, use one of the acids in Bru'n Water and figure out the dose needed to bring the mash pH to your intended target. Record the negative bicarbonate value that this acid dose produces (I'll call this the Total negative bicarbonate). Then switch to the 'flavor' acid you want to use (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and figure out the dose you want in order to achieve a certain concentration (sulfate in the case of sulfuric acid, chloride in the case of hydrochloric) and then observe the negative bicarbonate value that the 'flavor' dose produces. Then go back to the original acid and reduce its dose so that the sum of the negative bicarbonate from the original acid and flavor acid doses equal the Total negative bicarbonate value. You now have the doses for the acids. This can be used for multiple acids if you are so inclined.

By the way, combinations of citric, malic, acetic, etc, acids are not unthinkable. There could be flavor effects that you want in your beer and little additions of any acids may be a way of including those effects in your beer.

Curiouser and curiouser!

But my names not Alice, way too complicated for me.

I've often wondered what you did away from these forums, Orlando

[orlando]

But my names not Alice, way too complicated for me.

I've often wondered what you did away from these forums, Orlando

Well it is the weekend

[Dave S]

But my names not Alice, way too complicated for me.

I've often wondered what you did away from these forums, Orlando

Well it is the weekend

Anyway, enough of that. I see, courtesy of the Cpt. that Murphy's sell H2SO4 25% quite cheaply. I know I keep banging on about it but at that concentration there is no need to fanny about with it, and with Martin's latest revelations about using mixtures it's got my interest up again. The major benefit I see is being able to influence sulphate levels, (and chloride levels with HCI - not that I would use that as my chloride levels are already high at 110 ppm).

[orlando]

But my names not Alice, way too complicated for me.

I've often wondered what you did away from these forums, Orlando

Well it is the weekend

Anyway, enough of that. I see, courtesy of the Cpt. that Murphy's sell H2SO4 25% quite cheaply. I know I keep banging on about it but at that concentration there is no need to fanny about with it, and with Martin's latest revelations about using mixtures it's got my interest up again. The major benefit I see is being able to influence sulphate levels, (and chloride levels with HCI - not that I would use that as my chloride levels are already high at 110 ppm).

I still don't get it. If you have no problems with phosphoric, even at 85% I have no problems reducing alkalinity in my water and it's hard as fuke. Can you please tell me why you need to use these "hazardous" products instead? I adjust flavour profiles with additional salts and that's it.

[Dave S]

I still don't get it. If you have no problems with phosphoric, even at 85% I have no problems reducing alkalinity in my water and it's hard as fuke. Can you please tell me why you need to use these "hazardous" products instead? I adjust flavour profiles with additional salts and that's it.

I guess I'm just incurably curious as to what the result might be, (personal injury aside that is). Mind you, phosphoric is hazardous enough. I discovered two nice big holes in my T-shirt after one recent brew day

[orlando]

I still don't get it. If you have no problems with phosphoric, even at 85% I have no problems reducing alkalinity in my water and it's hard as fuke. Can you please tell me why you need to use these "hazardous" products instead? I adjust flavour profiles with additional salts and that's it.

I guess I'm just incurably curious as to what the result might be, (personal injury aside that is). Mind you, phosphoric is hazardous enough. I discovered two nice big holes in my T-shirt after one recent brew day

Well that's fair enough I suppose, nothing wrong with curiosity and experiment, holes in your T-shirt is a small price to pay, but anything else might have eaten the skin underneath .

[Dave S]

I still don't get it. If you have no problems with phosphoric, even at 85% I have no problems reducing alkalinity in my water and it's hard as fuke. Can you please tell me why you need to use these "hazardous" products instead? I adjust flavour profiles with additional salts and that's it.

I guess I'm just incurably curious as to what the result might be, (personal injury aside that is). Mind you, phosphoric is hazardous enough. I discovered two nice big holes in my T-shirt after one recent brew day

Well that's fair enough I suppose, nothing wrong with curiosity and experiment, holes in your T-shirt is a small price to pay, but anything else might have eaten the skin underneath .

Indeed. If I do take the plunge into the dark and dangerous, (and it is by no means decided) I will keep your good counsel close to my thoughts.

Edit: my main interest in this is in trying to get as close to the Burton profile as I can. Burton Bitter is one of my favourites, along with Adnam's, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire and several others Having said that, there might be more experiments to be done with phosphoric yet. I tasted my Burton Bitter yesterday whose SG was 1020 - so a bit to go yet. I didn't notice much in the way of sulphur notes, but that could change as the gravity comes down more. The sulphate level is 350 ppm and could probably get it up a bit more without resorting to sulphuric.