Flyer Blond - Do Hoppy Blonds work?

[JammyBStard]

I'm just looking at using up last years left-overs before I order some fresh Ingredients.
I have a 100g of Flyer left over, I've never used it before, So I'd like to make something that accentuates the Hop Character.
I'm going to try and Burtonise my water and do a Blond (Using up the Pilsner and Wheat malt from last years Weizen)
This is what I have so far.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 21.50 L

3.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 71.43 %
0.60 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 14.29 %
0.60 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 14.29 %
25.00 gm Flyer 2011 [10.00 %] (30 min) Hops 20.1 IBU
25.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (15 min) Hops 14.3 IBU
50.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (0 min) Hops -

Est Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.46 %
Est Color: 4.1 SRM

I dont want it to taste like hop juice though I've had some pretty cr4ppy 4% over hopped commercial examples recently, and I dont want it to be too be too hoppy for the ABV so I'm tempted to through in another KG of base malt (possibly Munich)and make a bigger beer.

Has anyone used flyer in a blond?

[Belter]

I always say it but increase the OG.

[Hanglow]

What commercial ones didn't you like? One mans hop tea is another mans bliss

My last hoppy blonde used 100g citra in the boil, all late additions and a 66g cascade dry hop and I loved it. Not too bitter at all but huge hop flavour

it was 1.046 too with 92% maris otter and 8% wheat/oats

No idea on the flyer

[orlando]

I use flyer as a bittering hop and found it gives a very "clean" bittering, haven't used it as a single hop but suspect that you have a potential hop bomb here unless your schedule is only going to be hop bursted. Intrigued by the differing AA % of your 30 minute hops and the others. Does your software suggest an IBU rate? Given you are not using it from the start it should keep the IBU's a lot lower and help smooth out the bitterness.

[Matt12398]

I'm not sure you can really call it a blonde if it's that hoppy. To me a blonde is all about a pale malty character and fairly low hopping rate. We don't have to be BJCP nazis though.

[Hanglow]

British blondes can be that hoppy imo . lots around at the moment too

[JammyBStard]

Blondish then

Hoptimus Prime was the last 4% Over hopped dissapointment I can remember trying. But as you say, perhaps it was just not my thing!

I use flyer as a bittering hop and found it gives a very "clean" bittering, haven't used it as a single hop but suspect that you have a potential hop bomb here unless your schedule is only going to be hop bursted.

Could you go into that for me a bit more please Orlando. Hop bursting is extracting all the bitterness at the end of the boil isn't it? So that's sort of my intention to avoid Harshness.

Intrigued by the differing AA % of your 30 minute hops and the others.

Nothing gets past you does it

Does your software suggest an IBU rate?

Not sure what you mean, Using BeerSmith

Given you are not using it from the start it should keep the IBU's a lot lower and help smooth out the bitterness.

Batch Size: 21.50 L

Based on all your comments I think I might add a half kilo of Munich to up the sweetness a tad and bring the ABV up to about 5%. I know that's straying into PA teratory but that's fine.
What do you think?

Ingredients
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 63.83 %
0.60 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 12.77 %
0.60 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 12.77 %
0.50 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 10.64 %
25.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (30 min) Hops 21.2 IBU
25.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (15 min) Hops 13.7 IBU
50.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (0 min) Hops -

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.99 %
Bitterness: 34.9 IBU
Est Color: 10.2 EBC

[orlando]

Blondish then

Hoptimus Prime was the last 4% Over hopped dissapointment I can remember trying. But as you say, perhaps it was just not my thing!

I use flyer as a bittering hop and found it gives a very "clean" bittering, haven't used it as a single hop but suspect that you have a potential hop bomb here unless your schedule is only going to be hop bursted.

Could you go into that for me a bit more please Orlando. Hop bursting is extracting all the bitterness at the end of the boil isn't it? So that's sort of my intention to avoid Harshness.

Intrigued by the differing AA % of your 30 minute hops and the others.

Nothing gets past you does it

Does your software suggest an IBU rate?

Not sure what you mean, Using BeerSmith

Given you are not using it from the start it should keep the IBU's a lot lower and help smooth out the bitterness.

Batch Size: 21.50 L

Based on all your comments I think I might add a half kilo of Munich to up the sweetness a tad and bring the ABV up to about 5%. I know that's straying into PA teratory but that's fine.
What do you think?

Ingredients
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 63.83 %
0.60 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 12.77 %
0.60 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 12.77 %
0.50 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 10.64 %
25.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (30 min) Hops 21.2 IBU
25.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (15 min) Hops 13.7 IBU
50.00 gm Flyer 2011 [11.00 %] (0 min) Hops -

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.99 %
Bitterness: 34.9 IBU
Est Color: 10.2 EBC

Apologies for the badgering, just trying to drill down to be of more help. Hop bursting: It didn't look to me from your schedule that you were having a bittering hop addition from the beginning of the boil. It takes about an hour to isomerise the alpha acids that provide the soluble bitterness. Hops added late in the boil are more for flavour or aroma, as these don't have all the aromatic oils boiled off. However there is some bittering that takes place so the idea of hop bursting is to add a "ton" of hops to get flavour and big aroma without making the whole thing too bitter.

Software: Beersmith will tell you what the total IBU's are so you can use this as a guide to how bitter the beer is likely to be each time you add some hops to the recipe. There is also a very useful tool that gives you a guide as to how balanced the bittering is against the malt (strength) of the beer. This is the IBU/SG ratio to the right of the recipe ingredients. So for example if you had a 1.040 beer with 40 IBU's it would be 1:1. My palate has taught me that I personally prefer a beer that is between .4 to .7, this is what I was getting at about the rate. You're 35:52 hopping rate gives a ratio of .67 so that would put it into quite bitter for me.

Now you have added the Munich (good move) and you now have all this extra data, try going back to the original recipe and seeing how it changes things. Hope that's helped.

[JammyBStard]

However there is some bittering that takes place so the idea of hop bursting is to add a "ton" of hops to get flavour and big aroma without making the whole thing too bitter.

That was the basic Idea I'd like to try.

Software: Beersmith will tell you what the total IBU's are so you can use this as a guide to how bitter the beer is likely to be each time you add some hops to the recipe. There is also a very useful tool that gives you a guide as to how balanced the bittering is against the malt (strength) of the beer. This is the IBU/SG ratio to the right of the recipe ingredients. So for example if you had a 1.040 beer with 40 IBU's it would be 1:1. My palate has taught me that I personally prefer a beer that is between .4 to .7, this is what I was getting at about the rate. You're 35:52 hopping rate gives a ratio of .67 so that would put it into quite bitter for me.

Now you have added the Munich (good move) and you now have all this extra data, try going back to the original recipe and seeing how it changes things. Hope that's helped.

That's interesting. I'd never paid that much attention to the ratio figure I'm going to go back over my old brews and see what I liked! One thing I should probably work out before I go any further is where the AA with my hops actually is. They're 2011 harvest that were opened for a sniff when I got them from Rob and have been in the freezer ever since. AA on the packet is 10.95% AA. How do we estimate what the AA is likely to be now. I know Beersmith has predictions for these things but I think it's considered Pesamistic/unreliable.

[orlando]

However there is some bittering that takes place so the idea of hop bursting is to add a "ton" of hops to get flavour and big aroma without making the whole thing too bitter.

That was the basic Idea I'd like to try.

Software: Beersmith will tell you what the total IBU's are so you can use this as a guide to how bitter the beer is likely to be each time you add some hops to the recipe. There is also a very useful tool that gives you a guide as to how balanced the bittering is against the malt (strength) of the beer. This is the IBU/SG ratio to the right of the recipe ingredients. So for example if you had a 1.040 beer with 40 IBU's it would be 1:1. My palate has taught me that I personally prefer a beer that is between .4 to .7, this is what I was getting at about the rate. You're 35:52 hopping rate gives a ratio of .67 so that would put it into quite bitter for me.

Now you have added the Munich (good move) and you now have all this extra data, try going back to the original recipe and seeing how it changes things. Hope that's helped.

That's interesting. I'd never paid that much attention to the ratio figure I'm going to go back over my old brews and see what I liked! One thing I should probably work out before I go any further is where the AA with my hops actually is. They're 2011 harvest that were opened for a sniff when I got them from Rob and have been in the freezer ever since. AA on the packet is 10.95% AA. How do we estimate what the AA is likely to be now. I know Beersmith has predictions for these things but I think it's considered Pesamistic/unreliable.

I'm reasonably sure there is a formula used in Beersmith to account for hops "losing" some of their characteristics so as long as you record them correctly the software does the rest. As for hop bursting you will just have to keep adding hops until you reach your desired IBU. However, don't forget to adjust your liquor volumes for hop retention. I'm not too convinced about this technique myself but let us know how it turns out. One final comment there is a lot of talk about bitterness and hops that is just bullshit, the problem is that bitterness perception is really subjective, find a bittering profile you like and stick with it is what I say.

[JammyBStard]

Agreed on the bitterness thing, There was a really interesting interview with Tinseth on BN a while back, hang on I'll try and find it..
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/588
This really put me right on the truth behind IBU calculations. What Beersmith tells you is entirely based on an empirical formula.
That said it's really all we have to guide us, the trick is to use it consistently.
I found a reasonable sugestion else-where that hops in the freezer loose about 4.4% of their AA every six months. Plugging that in give me an AA of about 9% which sounds reasonable.
that drops the IBU's down to 28 with a ratio of 0.55. So I think I'm going to go with this brew and see how it goes.

P.S. A while back Aleman gave me a figure of 15ml of beer is lost to verey gram of hops and that's already factored in.

Ta

[Matt12398]

The amount of AA lost in six months can't be given a specific figure because each hop is different. For example a hop like cascade has a very poor hop storage index whereas Perle will retain a lot more of its alpha acids after 6 months. You also have to factor what it's stored in as well. An unopened Mylar mag is very good for preserving hops but once opened less so. Clear poly vacuum bags are less reliable and even worse if not stored in a dark place such as a freezer.

[seymour]

I can't wait to hear your impressions about Flyer, no matter which recipe you end-up brewing. My own Flyer brew (which was copper coloured, if that matters) confirmed what many members here have written: it had subtly English-style but mainly neutral bitterness, similar to Challenger or Northern Brewer but with a higher alpha acid percentage, perhaps a bit smoother, less harsh than Target or Northdown or Bullion. The aromas and flavours were typically English too: mildly earthy and perfumey with some nice orange marmalade notes, but all that nearly disappeared after 4-6 weeks, leaving only a non-descript bitterness. That's probably fine for malt-forward brown ales, porters, stouts but would probably be uninspiring in a hops-forward blond ale. Not to discourage you, though, your mileage may vary, and as you've discovered no one round here has documented Flyer's performance in such a light style...

I've concluded it's an excellent English high-alpha bittering hop, but only suitable for aroma and flavour if the goal is to be produced and consumed immediately. It's probably perfect for quick turn-around beer, like a dry-hopped, cask-condition festival offering, for instance.

A follow-up question of my own: how new are your Flyer hops? The ones I used were 2011 harvest, so already somewhat deteriorated. Are yours from a more recent harvest? I hope so, that would be great news, because the rumour is they weren't grown/harvested again last year. If your hops are as old as mine, I fear they aren't the best candidate for a hoppy blond ale, for that reason alone.

One more thought: I assume you've seen this related thread? viewtopic.php?f=11&t=53137&hilit=+flyer#p559589

[wjohnson12321]

I reckon it will turn out nice with all Flyer tbh. I made a nearly all Flyer trad english bitter a few months back which turned out absolutely epic. Like people have said very clean bitterness and it has a lot of similarities to Challenger and Cascade from my tastings. I for once managed to get my crystal malt levels absolutely spot on for the hops too which is something I usually find so difficult.
(May be pure luck or may be flyer are such a good bittering hop).

[JammyBStard]

Mine are the 2011 10.95%. probably off the plant next to yours. my plan this year is to get to know the English hops. I've been brewing for four years and haven't really touched them. I suppose when the local pub has plenty of EKG based offerings I found it more attractive to brew expensive to buy APAs and Weiszen. But this year I intend to change that and brew some British styles.
I've just been out with the dogs and its beautiful weather and the Barley harvest is in full swing. It actually feels like Yorkshire again not the soggy mud bath its been for the last few years.

WJ. I just don't get on with Crystal either. The last couple of brews Ive been using tiny amounts of Black Patent and Munich instead. much better to my taste.