help needed- tolly cobbold old strong

[paulg]

I want to brew a winter ale like Tolly Cobbold Old Strong was .This brewery in suffolk closed some years ago but from the real ale almanac i find

pipkin pale malt
crystal malt
chocolate malt

and in one book
challenger and goldings hops
in an other challenger ,northdown and target

og 1050
IBU 35-43
EBC 180-190

what I am hoping is that someone with more experience of software can convert this into % grain and hop timings to get something similar or if someone has a recipe for this beer
thanks in advance
Paul

[seymour]

SEYMOUR TOLLY COBBOLD XXXX/OLD STRONG CLONE RECIPE
Based upon the historic Tollemache & Cobbold/Cliffe Brewery, from 1723-2002, in Ipswich, Suffolk, UK.
Using traditional malts and invert syrup.

This is my best-guess clone recipe, taking into consideration everything I've dug-up. I love the idea of an ESB containing only Pale, Crystal and Chocolate malt, but let's be realistic, there's no way those ingredients alone would produce the required extremely opaque black colour. Surely the "dirty little secret" (as with countless other dark strong English ales) is a moderate percentage of #3 Invert Syrup/Brewer's Caramel. I quote "dirty little secret" sarcastically, because of course there's nothing wrong with including simple sugars in your brews.

There is some evidence Tolly Cobbold used Target hops at some point. Obviously, they didn't use them before they were bred in 1965, and since many drinkers feel Target hops produce a harsh bitterness, I assume they favoured Challenger and Northdown whenever possible. That said, if you enjoy Target hops, they would be authentic as well.

I've called for two common English dry yeasts in order to emulate an old-timey multistrain fermentation, attenuative and estery. If anyone has facts about Tolly Cobbold's actual historic strain, please do tell! I bet the NCYC and Brewlab have it archived, but they anonymize everything, so I wouldn't know which one to order.

6 US Gallons = 5 Imperial Gallons = 22.7 Litres

FERMENTABLES:
70% = 7.42 lb = 3.37 kg, English Pale Malt
15% = 1.59 lb = 721 g, English Crystal Malt
7% = .74 lb = 336 g, English Chocolate Malt
8% = .85 lb = 386 g, #3 Invert Syrup (added to boil)

MASH ≈ 152.6°F/67°C for 90 minutes. If your water is quite neutral, consider adding a pinch of Calcium carbonate to the mash tun.

SPARGE ≈ 170°F/76.7°C to collect 7.5 US Gal/6.25 Imp Gal/28.4L pre-boil.

BOIL for 60-90 minutes, adding the dark syrup whenever you like.

HOPS:
.8 oz ≈ 23 g, Challenger, 60 minutes
.4 oz ≈ 11 g, Northdown, 60 minutes
.5 oz ≈ 14 g, Goldings, 30 minutes
1 oz ≈ 28 g, Goldings, dry-hopped for about 1 week before bottling/kegging

YEAST:
Dual strain: Nottingham and Windsor, 1 pack of each, ferment at 70°F/21°C

STATS assume 77% mash efficiency and 75% yeast attenuation:
OG: 1050
FG: 1013
ABV: 4.8%
IBU: 36
COLOUR: opaque black

Best of luck, and happy brewing!

[paulg]

thanks for your reply
I have found that the cliff quay brewery that was setup in the old bottling area of tollys cliff quay brewery (although now brew in a different village in suffolk) show a version of old strong that they say was taken from tolly's brewing books.
I have taken the liberty of e-mailing them in the hope that they may divulge the recipe.
At least your recipe gives me a starting point and it is interesting that you are the only reply so far and you hail from across the pond.
once again thanks seymour
regards Paul

[seymour]

According to The Brewing Industry: A Guide to Historical Records, published in 1990, their 1957-1979 brewing books were archived at Tollemache & Cobbold Breweries Ltd, PO Box 5, Cliff Brewery, Ipswich, IP3 0AZ. That's obviously outdated info, considering since then Ridleys bought them and then Greene King bought them...but it bodes well the Tolly & Cobbold historic recipes exist somewhere, and are probably available for you to view if you find the right party to ask…

Keep digging, and please let me know if you strike gold!

[Normski]

Hi Paul

I was looking through my recipe collection and found some details on the Tolly Cobold xxxx/Old Strong.
Unfortunatly there were no persentages, but maybe it helps anyway.

Gravity between 1046-1050
Pipkin Pale Malt
Crystal
Chocolate

Goldings or

Challenger & Northdown & Target

Norm

[Dave S]

Armed with Seymour's and Norm's information, it looks like a good likeness may be brewed.

[paulg]

thanks normski your info matches what I have in the roger protz real ale almanac versions 3 and 4 (I think)
no matter what I tried I could not get anywhere near the figure for colour quoted when I played with brewmate .This is why I asked for someone with more knowledge to help me.
Maybe seymour is correct about the use of dark invert sugar .
up to now I have not received an answer to my e-mail to Cliff Quay Brewery ,who did brew a beer claimed to have been taken from tolly's brewing books recipe for old strong.

[Normski]

I agree, The colour must come from brewres caramel or one of the dark invert syrup's.
I personally would not use over 10% crystal. And the chocolate is probably the difficult part to balance without knowing what Old Strong tastes like.
Norm

[seymour]

I agree, The colour must come from brewres caramel or one of the dark invert syrup's.
I personally would not use over 10% crystal. And the chocolate is probably the difficult part to balance without knowing what Old Strong tastes like.
Norm

You're probably right about the Crystal Malt percentage, maybe 5-10% would be best, and plan to get most of your colour from Brewer's Caramel/Dark Invert Syrup. My notes for Tolly Cobbold Mild show 70% Pale, 10.7% Crystal Malt, 10.7% Torrified Wheat, .2% Chocolate Malt, 8.4% #3 Invert Syrup, which might serve as a starting point.

However, I've seen several English Old Ale recipes which call for >10% crystal such as Arundel Old Knucker and Uley Old Spot Prize Ale. I assumed it was because they are meant to be a heavier, malt-forward, more toffee-like style, which necessarily undergoes very lengthy conditioning with higher-attenuating yeasts which helps break down those complex sugars. If Old Ale can be thought of as an aged Mild, as some people suggest, there are many more examples of very high percentages of Crystal malt.

What do you guys think?

[paulg]

once again thanks for your input seymour.
I am interested in your detals of tolly mild ,is it the mild from before the take over by ridleys?
there is a recipe for ridleys mild in norms listings and I have never worked out if this was ridleys or tollys mild,I know for sure that at one time ridleys mild was the bitter with caramel added to give darkness to the colour(this was circa 1980 ish) but I think this changed later on
I always preferred the dark beers from tolly cobbold which I believe came from the cobbold side of tolly cobbold as cobbolds were always known for there dark beers( tollemache and cobbold breweries amalgamated in the 1950s.)

[seymour]

once again thanks for your input seymour.
I am interested in your detals of tolly mild ,is it the mild from before the take over by ridleys?
there is a recipe for ridleys mild in norms listings and I have never worked out if this was ridleys or tollys mild,I know for sure that at one time ridleys mild was the bitter with caramel added to give darkness to the colour(this was circa 1980 ish) but I think this changed later on
I always preferred the dark beers from tolly cobbold which I believe came from the cobbold side of tolly cobbold as cobbolds were always known for there dark beers( tollemache and cobbold breweries amalgamated in the 1950s.)

Good question. I don't know the dates of origin, but here's everything I've got (most of which you already know):

Ridleys Mild/XXXX
T. D. Ridley & Sons - Chelmsford, Essex, UK
OG: 1034
IBU: 24
Colour: 76°SRM/150°EBC, opaque black
Grainbill: Pale, Crystal Malt, Chocolate Malt, #3 Invert Syrup
Hops: Fuggles, Goldings, dry hops as well
Yeast: historic Ridley brewery strain, still in use by Crouch Vale, Wibblers, and available as White Labs WLP022, probably BrewLabs Essex/Essex IPA

Tolly Cobbold Mild
Tollemache & Cobbold/Cliffe Brewery (Historic, 1723-2002) - Ipswich, Suffolk, UK
OG: 1032
IBU: 18
Colour: 61°SRM/120°EBC, opaque black
Grainbill: 70% Pale, 10.7% Crystal Malt, 10.7% Torrified Wheat, 8.4% #3 Invert Syrup .2% Chocolate Malt
Bittering hops: Challenger and/or Northdown
Aroma hops: Goldings (no dry hops)
Yeast: unknown

[paulg]

well finally got round to brewing seymours tolly old strong recipe had to scale it down to 19 litres as was a bit short on maris otter.
ended up with 22 litres of 1.052 instead of 19 litres of 1.050 so slightly better efficiency achieved.
have followed seymours idea of notty and windsor yeasts combined just hope I havent over done it as pitched one packet of each.fermenting at 21 c(this is higher than I normally do 18c) will see how it goes

[seymour]

Cool, can't wait to hear how it turns out. What did you use for sugar? I bet that boil smelled yummy, huh?

[paulg]

hi seymour I used golden syrup and treacle(I believe you call it blackstrap molasses) as per this site

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-bre ... ers-invert

now safely tucked away in fermentation fridge

[paulg]

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