Vienna Style Lager

[AnthonyD]

Hi folks,

Ordered some stuff to brew this the weekend;

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 5.06 Imp gal
Post Boil Volume: 4.50 Imp gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 3.75 Imp gal
Bottling Volume: 3.91 Imp gal
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 15.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 27.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.70 kg Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 63.2 %
1.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 23.4 %
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.8 %
0.25 kg Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.8 %
10.00 g Nugget [9.75 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 11.2 IBUs
30.00 g Perle [6.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 6 8.3 IBUs
20.00 g Nugget [9.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 8.1 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) [35.49 Yeast 8 -
0.07 kg Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 9 1.8 %
1/4 Protofloc tablet 10 mins


Any thoughts?? I like my lagers hoppy and know the nugget isn't really in style, but the Perle is related to Hersbruker isn't it? So that should be ok? I'm considering dropping the 10min Nugget addition.

Do I have too much black malt for the style - I wanted to add colour and will do a cold steep on friday night to add it to the boil after mashing.

Finally, I'm going to make a 2L starter up tomorrow night once the yeast and DME arrives.

[Manx Guy]

Hi!

I brewed a good Vienna ages ago using only hersbruker it turned out pretty good.

If you want to drop the 10 min Nugget that might help the Perle show through more...

My recipe didn't use any black malt and was about 22 EBC
OG 1053 and was about 28 IBU

What yeast are you planning to use?
IIRC I used Wyeast 2206

Good luck & let us know how it turns out

Cheers

Guy

[AnthonyD]

The yeast is WLP830 - never used White Labs before so looking forward to trying them compared to the Wyeast smack packs.

Going to give it 2 weeks in primary, 2-3 weeks in secondary at 2~C, and then bottle (hopefully over the Christmas break. I've read on BYO that using Protofloc helps reduce the lagering time as it assists with clearing. I'll see how I get on!

I'll be sure to do another brew-day thread or post the results up here. Really liking the Vienna style right now.

[Lugsy]

Well done for going for a Vienna, it's not a popular style but makes for a great lager IMO

That looks like a tasty grain bill but I'd be a bit worried about using quite so much cara/crystal malts in case it ends up too sweet, make sure your mash temperature is nice and low. I brewed this a while back and it turned out well but still quite chewy for a lager. I think the amount of black malt will be fine though, especially with the cold steeping.

Perle is an excellent choice of hop, it gives a great German lager taste, I've used it in Weizens to good effect too. No idea about Nugget but I think with a Vienna you want a decent whack of hops to get through the malt so go for it!

You might want to pep up your starter size though if possible. I think you'd be hard pushed to over pitch with the cold fermentation for a lager, you could go bigger if you have a container big enough for it. I think it's pretty much standard to use a 4 litre starter for a 5 gallon batch so you could go to around 3 litres for your brew.

Let us know how it goes.

[AnthonyD]

Thanks for the help guys... I'll drop the 10m Nugget, and reduce the cara/crystal slightly, and mash low!
Great tips folks, and your recipe looks very tasty Lugsy!

[Manx Guy]

Agree with Lugsy, Vienna is an underrated style which is very pleasant...

A tip I picked up when brewing Kolsch - to get a nice dry crisp beer mash @ 65 ( or lower if the fancy takes you) using a 4litre per kilo ratio...

It also saves time sparging!

Hope that helps!

Cheers!

Guy

[AnthonyD]

4L a kilo! Crikey... I'll give it a go though! Thanks.

Here's to hopefully a good beer weekend.

[Lugsy]

Manx Guy - That sounds like a good tip, how does it affect efficiency? I always try to sparge to the max to get the sugars out of the grain but a thin mash makes sense for fermentability. Very interesting!

One last tip - keep a close eye on the ferment and get in with the diacetyl rest before it's too late - I was pretty late with mine and it took a good while to clean up

[Manx Guy]

Manx Guy - That sounds like a good tip, how does it affect efficiency? I always try to sparge to the max to get the sugars out of the grain but a thin mash makes sense for fermentability. Very interesting!

One last tip - keep a close eye on the ferment and get in with the diacetyl rest before it's too late - I was pretty late with mine and it took a good while to clean up

Yes it's easy to miss the sweet spot for the diacetyl rest.. Lol

I find that as far as efficiency goes I usually gain a few percentage points..

Apparently it's a traditional practice in most Kolsch breweries, so I'm guessing it makes sense from a commercial point of view also.

It avoids over sparging yet keeps efficiency high. It's obviously advantageous in a soft subtle beer like Kolsch where any tannins or other off flavours would become very apparent.

I tried it and was surprised how effective yet simple it was!

Makes the mash easy to mix too!

Only down side this time of year is a thinner mash may lose heat quicker, if your insulation is anything less than ideal.

Cheers!

Guy

[Lugsy]

Very interesting, I must try it out

Only down side this time of year is a thinner mash may lose heat quicker, if your insulation is anything less than ideal.

I would have thought that the reduced head space and increased heat mass would have reduced temperature drop if anything.

I must study this phenomenon

[Manx Guy]

Very interesting, I must try it out

Only down side this time of year is a thinner mash may lose heat quicker, if your insulation is anything less than ideal.

I would have thought that the reduced head space and increased heat mass would have reduced temperature drop if anything.

I must study this phenomenon

I'm happy to be corrected on that point...

More liquor will certainly affect the strike temp...

You might find some useful calculations in this article:
https://byo.com/stories/item/1110-manag ... -thickness

Let me know your thoughts
Cheers

Guy

[Barley Water]

Yeah I make that style usually every spring. I'd do a couple of things, first as was suggested I'd reduce the crystal malt a bunch (you have over 10% in total, I use none) secondly, if you can get dehusked Carafa, I would use that rather than Black Patent malt for the color (you want a little toast but absolutely no roast). Good beer though, good luck.

[AdyG]

This recipe looks really good, as I'm interested in trying a lager myself next year and wouldn't mind doing the Vienna style. I haven't brewed a lager yet, but does this particular style of lager not need 'lagering' at 0-4 degrees for a couple of months?

A lot of the Czech Pilsners do say you need to lager for a long period of time.

[AnthonyD]

Ady,

This recipe will be my first lager too. I've read a few articles on BYO recently and this particulary one extensivelyhttp://byo.com/component/k2/item/1564-v ... r-in-exile

This particular quote gives me hope it can be done quite quickly esp if protofloced too..

Vienna lagers don’t need to be lagered (cold conditioned) for a long time. Less than a month is common for commercial Mexican Vienna lagers. Bigger lagers such as Octoberfests and bocks may benefit from up to 3 months of lagering, but a Vienna lager will likely be ready in about 2 months, if not sooner. If you fine the beer with Polyclar AT in secondary, just before racking it to your serving keg (or bottling bucket), you may shave a week or so off this time.

[AnthonyD]

I've refined the recipe after taking on all your comments and have decided to do the following:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 5.06 Imp gal
Post Boil Volume: 4.50 Imp gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 3.75 Imp gal
Bottling Volume: 3.69 Imp gal
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 12.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 84.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2.70 kg Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 1 68.2 %
1.00 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 25.3 %
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.5 %
0.10 kg Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.5 %
35.00 g Perle [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 21.0 IBUs
0.90 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 -
25.00 g Perle [5.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 6.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg German Lager (White Labs #WLP830) [35.49 Yeast 8 -
0.90 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Other 9 -
0.06 kg Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 10 1.5 %


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 3.96 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 12.48 l of water at 69.5 C 64.4 C 90 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.64Imp gal, 2.53Imp gal) of 75.6 C water


Not quite the 4L a kilo mashing, but 3.2L should see me on the way - the syle is still supposed to have some malt backbone after all!
Brewing it on Sunday, will update you all how I get on!