Brewing with strange fruit

[brewtalk]

Over the years i made apple, orange,pear,strawberry,kiwi and wild berry ciders just one thing I've tried to make and had no success with your probably gonna think I'm mad? can you create grapefruit cider without it becoming acid and not astringent?

I've tired with the adjunct malic acid, also tried ways to back sweeten no luck.

If its not possible that is cool and I'll try to brew another experimental cider.

ryan
brewtalk

[asd]

Why add acid to something that is to your taste too acid?

[brewtalk]

I tried the malic acid on the second attempt to see i can make a malolactic fermention happen in secondary as from what i read about it gives higher ph which is supposed to be less acidic and it would give a better mouth feel?, i compared attempt 1 to attempt 2 and its about the same.

I want to at least find a way to make a grapefruit cider and experimentation is not always successful, if someone knows of a way to create grapefruit cider without the acid you'd have my appreciation.

In my attempts i used Champagne yeast 2grams in 1 gallon demijohn of crushed grapefruit and 3 liter (organic juice as claimed by the label) juice with yeast nutrient and no added suger as the og was a respectable 1.046.

hope this extra information is useful, i considered changing yeast? as different strains produce slightly different flavours.

ryan

[asd]

I tried the malic acid on the second attempt to see i can make a malolactic fermention happen in secondary as from what i read about it gives higher ph which is supposed to be less acidic and it would give a better mouth feel?, i compared attempt 1 to attempt 2 and its about the same.

I want to at least find a way to make a grapefruit cider and experimentation is not always successful, if someone knows of a way to create grapefruit cider without the acid you'd have my appreciation.

In my attempts i used Champagne yeast 2grams in 1 gallon demijohn of crushed grapefruit and 3 liter (organic juice as claimed by the label) juice with yeast nutrient and no added suger as the og was a respectable 1.046.

hope this extra information is useful, i considered changing yeast? as different strains produce slightly different flavours.

ryan

Sorry if I was a bit abrupt. I see what you were trying to do now. Malolactic fermentation is a bit of a black art, and won't happen spontaneously in the circumstances you describe. You would need to introduce the correct bacteria. However, if the grapefruit drink doesn't taste nice, maybe it's just not a good a good thing to make alcoholic drink from, a bit like tomato wine, which by accounts on this and other forums, just doesn't work.

[jmc]

How about another approach that doesn't add citric acid to the mix.

A few have tried adding hops to cider. Some hops have a grapefruit aroma so you could add these once main fermentation is over to maximise aroma.

[mozza]

Just a thought but could you ferment a normal cider and once fermented add a campden tablet to kill off your yeast and then add your grapefruit?

[jmc]

How about another approach that doesn't add citric acid to the mix.

A few have tried adding hops to cider. Some hops have a grapefruit aroma so you could add these once main fermentation is over to maximise aroma.

Hops you could try to give a grapefruit aroma include; Cascade, Chinook & Riwaka. See more info on hop varieties
Video: Woodchuck® Cellar Series Dry Hop - Cider (They use Cascade for its grapefruit flavour/aroma
Video - Big Secue - Experimental Brewing - Dry Hopped Cider
other hopped cider video


If you wanted to stick with using grapefruit juice maybe make up a TC with shop-bought apple juice, which is normally from dessert fruit (eaters) and add grapefruit juice into the mix at say 25%, plus a cup of strong tea for tannin, 1 tsp youngs yeast per gal & 1 tsp yeast-nutrient if you have it.
Don't add any more acid to it, just rely on acid from grapefruit.

If it ends up too acid you could add some potassium carbonate to reduce the acidity. This is supposed to have less effect on taste than chalk (calcium carbonate) according to Andrew Lea.

BTW: a malolactic fermentation will not affect the citric acid from the grapefruit.
A malolactic fermentation converts malic to (smoother tasting) lactic acid.

[brewtalk]

Thanks for the replies about the malolactic fermentation it was worth a try to see what happens, I'm only gonna try something once to experiment with it as it is kind of fun to see what happens.

I've made hopped ciders in the past and they are lovely, i am gonna experiment with a plain cider then back sweeten with grapefruit juice once fermentation has stopped/been stopped. Also the idea of a 75% apple to 25% other juice mix sounds fun, I'm gonna set one off to see turbo style cider test batch.

The yeast i have to hand at the moment is young's champagne yeast 5g sachet, lalvin wine and cider 5g sachets, young super compound yeast tub 60g. I've used super compound makes good crisp cider, champers yeast is allot dryer for the dryer taste. Not really sure why i bought the lalvin other then it was on offer i might have to give it a go and taste it to see what flavour it gives.

I'll definitely going to looked into the potassium carbonate it might be handy to have in my brew box, thanks for the reply. I always used tanning in wine never thought to put it in cider? interesting gonna use it with my turbo test batch of juice mix.

Hops are good I'm kinda low on the hop supply i only have fuggles and mallerette at the moment, i have good stash of malt and chocolate malt for my next experimental mini mash.

[jmc]

Thanks for the replies about the malolactic fermentation it was worth a try to see what happens, I'm only gonna try something once to experiment with it as it is kind of fun to see what happens.

I've made hopped ciders in the past and they are lovely, i am gonna experiment with a plain cider then back sweeten with grapefruit juice once fermentation has stopped/been stopped. Also the idea of a 75% apple to 25% other juice mix sounds fun, I'm gonna set one off to see turbo style cider test batch.

The yeast i have to hand at the moment is young's champagne yeast 5g sachet, lalvin wine and cider 5g sachets, young super compound yeast tub 60g. I've used super compound makes good crisp cider, champers yeast is allot dryer for the dryer taste. Not really sure why i bought the lalvin other then it was on offer i might have to give it a go and taste it to see what flavour it gives.

I'll definitely going to looked into the potassium carbonate it might be handy to have in my brew box, thanks for the reply. I always used tanning in wine never thought to put it in cider? interesting gonna use it with my turbo test batch of juice mix.

Hops are good I'm kinda low on the hop supply i only have fuggles and mallerette at the moment, i have good stash of malt and chocolate malt for my next experimental mini mash.

I bought this potassium carbonate off eBay

Seller confirmed it was food grade

I initially got the idea of using tea from this excellent post by Dreadskin
Turbo Cider Recipes, Methods and Taste Collection.

[brewtalk]

I got my hands on some potassium carbonate gonna experiment with it, How are you finding it in use?

EDIT my grammar is getting worse

[jmc]

I got my hands on some potassium carbonate gonna experiment with it, How are you finding it in use?

EDIT my grammar is getting worse

I haven't used any yet.
Its early but we started on 1st batch of this year's cider at the weekend as I had a party.
It was made from early-ripening varieties so less sugar than later batches but noone wanted it sweetened with apple juice.

When a get a bit of time I'll experiment with some to see if potassium carbonate improves things.
When I do I'll follow Andrew Lea's suggestion for testing by adding small additions.

Suggestions on reducing acidity from
http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php ... makers_FAQ

Blending - the art of making a great cider

There are two aspects of blending to consider. The blending of juice from different cider apple and possibly other apple varieties prior to fermentation, and the blending of different made ciders to make a final product to taste. Some of the the qualities which can be adjusted by bending are dryness/sweetness, acidity, alcohol strength, flavour, tannin and liveliness.

Q How can I correct for over-acidity? I know our cider is very acid as it's made from whatever apples we can get my hands on, mostly cookers and it tastes very acid, not tannin.

A Don't add chalk if you can avoid it - better is to add potassium carbonate (you may need to order Potassium Carbonate BP from a chemist). Go up in steps of about 1 gram per litre till you get to an acceptable place.

The alternative is to try using a malo-lactic bacterial culture. You can buy them from Vigo or Brouwland. But it's best to delay till springtime when it's warmer. They don't perform in the cold.

pH will tell you very little about acid *taste*. You really need a measure of titratable acidity to do that. - Andrew Lea

I'm hoping my other batches of coder get a malo-lactic fermentation in the spring.
Potassium carbonate is really a 'plan B' in case that doesn't happen & I need to reduce acidity.

[EoinMag]

You could add a pinch of bicarb of soda to react with the acid and take the edge off.

[WalesAles]

my grammar is getting worse

My Gramama is getting better, She had a Hip Replacement last week.
Sorry, Couldn`t resist. I`m like a Child!
WA

[Rookie]

Over the years i made apple, orange,pear,strawberry,kiwi and wild berry ciders just one thing I've tried to make and had no success with your probably gonna think I'm mad? can you create grapefruit cider without it becoming acid and not astringent?

I've tired with the adjunct malic acid, also tried ways to back sweeten no luck.

If its not possible that is cool and I'll try to brew another experimental cider.

ryan
brewtalk

You could try using the zest only.

[brewtalk]

I got my hands on some potassium carbonate gonna experiment with it, How are you finding it in use?

When a get a bit of time I'll experiment with some to see if potassium carbonate improves things.
When I do I'll follow Andrew Lea's suggestion for testing by adding small additions.

Suggestions on reducing acidity from
http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php ... makers_FAQ

Blending - the art of making a great cider

There are two aspects of blending to consider. The blending of juice from different cider apple and possibly other apple varieties prior to fermentation, and the blending of different made ciders to make a final product to taste. Some of the the qualities which can be adjusted by bending are dryness/sweetness, acidity, alcohol strength, flavour, tannin and liveliness.

Q How can I correct for over-acidity? I know our cider is very acid as it's made from whatever apples we can get my hands on, mostly cookers and it tastes very acid, not tannin.

A Don't add chalk if you can avoid it - better is to add potassium carbonate (you may need to order Potassium Carbonate BP from a chemist). Go up in steps of about 1 gram per litre till you get to an acceptable place.

The alternative is to try using a malo-lactic bacterial culture. You can buy them from Vigo or Brouwland. But it's best to delay till springtime when it's warmer. They don't perform in the cold.

pH will tell you very little about acid *taste*. You really need a measure of titratable acidity to do that. - Andrew Lea

I'm hoping my other batches of coder get a malo-lactic fermentation in the spring.
Potassium carbonate is really a 'plan B' in case that doesn't happen & I need to reduce acidity.

I wish you luck in achieving malo-lactic fermentation Jim, cheers for the link on acid acidity and malo-lactic bacterial culture (didn't know it existed cheers) your a legend very helpful. I decided to test Potassium carbonate i set off two batches one with Potassium carbonate with grapefruit juice(concentrate and tanning turbo grapefruit lol) and the other with apples and grapefruit zest no Potassium carbonate just tanning.

Thanks for all the comments on options of correcting acidity very helpful, i would never thought bi carbonate of soda would be viable in brewing? this hobby is limitless i am wondering about other cooking ingredients you could use for interesting results, have a happy homebrew new year!

The 75/25 mixes came out beautiful, bottle matured and yum thanks for the tip, i had an idea for strawberry and kiwi cider? that is for next year tho, i also got some more hops in i got one called "progress" never heard of it so i got 100grams for the future testing, also got cascade and citra so I'm good and stocked up for now.

I saw chalk in my local brew shop i was tempted to try? i decided against it and bought things i needed. Is chalk a good investment for the brew box?

edit - my spelling why are you so bad? i need to read more books next year.