Problems I cannot find the answer to?

[cumbrianwolf]

Here are the results from UU with regards to Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 Highest 48.6250 and lowest 40.2000.
Which is quite low and no doubt very hard to maintain a stable PH what with the lack of buffering that will be offered by these low figures, I will wait for an update from you all before I move over to the Liquor threads!

Looks as though I was not adding enough mineral salts to my brews and therefore causing the mash PH to go off scale. I have just used the calculator on this forum combined with my details provided by UU and I was most certainly not adding anywhere near these amounts to my water, plus I had no way of ascertaining the PH but since this time I have some PH strips and a PH tested on its way to me and will try another brew with the full allocation of water treatments. By the way do you treat both your mash water and sparge water?

[PhilB]

Hi John

Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 Highest 48.6250 and lowest 40.2000

... that's not really too low ... probably on the low side of just about perfect, but shouldn't be causing any problems ... and bottled water is unlikely to provide you with anything much different ... sorry, looks like that was a complete red-herring

Looks like Eric is steering you down the next avenue to investigate though
Good luck with it
Cheers, PhilB

[cumbrianwolf]

Oh well it was worth a thought for sure, and I will await my pH meter before proceeding with another brew so that I can see what is happening in all the stages of the mash. After stripping and sanitising all equipment.

[beerbeerbeer]

Been meaning to post on this all week. Your issues sound similar to mine and i also think that my water is playing a role. I've brewed quite a few good IPAs and Pale Ales and a couple of dark beers (mild) which were v good but my lighter beers (lager and pae ales without crystal especially) definately have a certain twang which I find it hard to describe (powdery is the best word I can think of). The lighter beers also have clarity issues.

My water:

Liquor pH 6.12
Alkalinity as CaC03 : 36
Carbonates as C03 : 21.6
Nitrate : 11.9
Chloride as Cl : 13
Sulphate as s04 : 5.76
Total Hardness : 60
Calcium as Ca 12.8
Magnesium as Mg : 6.72

So not being a chemist I find the subject of water quite confusing, but I *think* that the broad objective is to get the right mash/sparge/boil pH and also balance out the mineral profile to the style. My latest brew was an SNPA clone and I used Bru'n'water to calclate additions, and added Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride as well as lactic acid to the mash to get it to 5.3. I was surprised at how stubborn the mash pH was - I had to add more lactic acid than expected/calculated to get it in range. Anyway in the boil i coninued to monitor pH and was amazed that it was really stubborn and crept up somewhere between the beginning of the mash and boil. So through the boil I added more gypsum up to the level of the pale ale profile in bru'n'water in order to help bring pH down. Also ended up adding more lactic acid in the boil as i didnt want to continue adding more gypsum after I'd got to the pae ale profile... pH post boil was low 5's (I need to write stuff down more but I had my hands full!!). Tasting the wort I definately think it was smoother than usual.. although this could be my mind playing tricks on me (I read that the hop character will be smoother with correct boil pH..). I'll be bottling and kegging this batch over the weekend so I look forward to tasting it.

Its amazing to me that I had to add a fair bit of acid (I think its within acceptable levels still) and so much gypsum to manage the pH to the ranges that I read I should manage them down to. It just goes to show how much I still dont understand on this subject. Maybe the fact the water is so soft means that theres nothing to act in the mash to bring the pH into the right range (so low alkalinity = less buffer but low calcium means less tendancy for the pH to reduce to where it should be??).

Anyway sorry if ive hijacked your thread but i thought my exerience sounded similar to yours... also any comments welcome...!!!

Brewing again this weekend and am planning a lager, so I have some acid malt to help bring pH down as I dont want to go crazy with the gypsum on this style.

Cheers
Tim

[cumbrianwolf]

You are not hijacking and your results are the exact same as mine, the problem we have is that there is no form of PH buffering with our soft water as mentioned earlier in my post I had the same issue with a display tank that I was trying to maintain a neutral 7.0 PH and it would forever vary itself thanks to the additions of organic matter decomposition and carbon dioxide saturation points, it is quite a common issue and the swimming pools around this area have to treat the water to maintain an acceptable PH.

As you say which way do you go with regards to the mash? Adding acid only temporally drops the PH and then with the introduction of other grain adjuncts the PH in the mash rises again and we get heavy handed with the gypsum which is calcium carbonate and I used such a thing in the aquariums with little long term effect when saturated. The only solution I used in the aquariums was RO water with a mineral salt mix that depending on the quantity added it would replicate a set water profile such as soft, medium and hard water, it was a pain in the butt and costly for the wastage but it worked for the aquariums.

I am looking into such a task this time around as I have an efficient six stage RO system lying dormant and just need to source the mineral mix and see if it is safe for consumption. Surprising how all the old stuff you thought you had forgotten starts to return once you need it.

[Dave S]

Been meaning to post on this all week. Your issues sound similar to mine and i also think that my water is playing a role. I've brewed quite a few good IPAs and Pale Ales and a couple of dark beers (mild) which were v good but my lighter beers (lager and pae ales without crystal especially) definately have a certain twang which I find it hard to describe (powdery is the best word I can think of). The lighter beers also have clarity issues.

My water:

Liquor pH 6.12
Alkalinity as CaC03 : 36
Carbonates as C03 : 21.6
Nitrate : 11.9
Chloride as Cl : 13
Sulphate as s04 : 5.76
Total Hardness : 60
Calcium as Ca 12.8
Magnesium as Mg : 6.72

So not being a chemist I find the subject of water quite confusing, but I *think* that the broad objective is to get the right mash/sparge/boil pH and also balance out the mineral profile to the style. My latest brew was an SNPA clone and I used Bru'n'water to calclate additions, and added Calcium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride as well as lactic acid to the mash to get it to 5.3. I was surprised at how stubborn the mash pH was - I had to add more lactic acid than expected/calculated to get it in range. Anyway in the boil i coninued to monitor pH and was amazed that it was really stubborn and crept up somewhere between the beginning of the mash and boil. So through the boil I added more gypsum up to the level of the pale ale profile in bru'n'water in order to help bring pH down. Also ended up adding more lactic acid in the boil as i didnt want to continue adding more gypsum after I'd got to the pae ale profile... pH post boil was low 5's (I need to write stuff down more but I had my hands full!!). Tasting the wort I definately think it was smoother than usual.. although this could be my mind playing tricks on me (I read that the hop character will be smoother with correct boil pH..). I'll be bottling and kegging this batch over the weekend so I look forward to tasting it.

Its amazing to me that I had to add a fair bit of acid (I think its within acceptable levels still) and so much gypsum to manage the pH to the ranges that I read I should manage them down to. It just goes to show how much I still dont understand on this subject. Maybe the fact the water is so soft means that theres nothing to act in the mash to bring the pH into the right range (so low alkalinity = less buffer but low calcium means less tendancy for the pH to reduce to where it should be??).

Anyway sorry if ive hijacked your thread but i thought my exerience sounded similar to yours... also any comments welcome...!!!

Brewing again this weekend and am planning a lager, so I have some acid malt to help bring pH down as I dont want to go crazy with the gypsum on this style.

Cheers
Tim

Looking at your water profile, you don't need any acid additions. The alkalinity level looks pretty well spot on for pale ales, (30-50 ppm). I'd say it just needs the sulphate and chloride levels adjusting. Calcium should be at least 50 ppm for good enzyme and yeast performance. You might have problems with porters and stouts though, where the alkalinity should be up around 100 or so.

[lord.president]

I've had 'off tastes' in pretty much most of the pale ales I made. My water would be very much similar,if not the same as cumbrianwolfs,in Carlisle. I've since moved to Locckerbie where my water was 47 CaCo3 alkalinity. I've since found that treating the water with a Campden tablet has cured the issue- the tap filter I had was taking out chlorine,but not chloramines, leaving a 'melted plastic' aroma and taste. I got a Murphy's report done,and use the water calculator on here. I've also just started using Starsan to sanitise,instead of PBW and lots of rinsing! No problems since.

[cumbrianwolf]

So you think it was just the Chloramine causing the issue? How much sodium metabisulphite were you adding to the water?

[lord.president]

Half tablet crushed. At the same time I started using solely Starsan and the Murphy's report/water treatment calculator,so I couldn't be 100%. Made a bitter,heffeweizen,rye IPA and a stout since with no problems.

[cumbrianwolf]

Well it looks like I have to try a few options to amend this issue, I will start with a strip and sanitise of all kit and then move onto treating my water with the campden tablet to release the Chlorine and Chloramines that are present and then correct the amount of mineral salts as well as testing my mash PH during the brewing stage.

Just need to wait for my PH tester to arrive from China, yes cheap and cheerful but I have PH strips as back up!

[beerbeerbeer]

Thanks for the reply dave. I have run the numbers through various calculators and had that same answer. The reality of testing mash ph with the meter gives different perspective though... ill see what happens on the next brew!!

[lord.president]

Half tablet crushed. At the same time I started using solely Starsan and the Murphy's report/water treatment calculator,so I couldn't be 100%. Made a bitter,heffeweizen,rye IPA and a stout since with no problems.

Like to also point out,that my mash has been 5.3 everytime,since. I had been using pH strips,but the colour of the mash made them difficult to read,so I probably ended up adding more acid then needed. Got a cheapo pen on fleabay,calibrate it before use.

[cumbrianwolf]

I have just bought one of those pens as well, cheap and cheerful but I am sure it will help and thanks for the tip on calibrating before hand. Oh and yes the PH strips are good on light coloured beers otherwise if it is a stout it leaves you pondering what colour the test strip is showing afterwards.

[beerbeerbeer]

I brewed on Saturday (Pils with some fresh saaz from the poly tunnel). I used the acid malt and managed to get a mash pH of 5.3. I added more acid to the boil (until I ran out!), and although the boil pH wasnt as low as i have read it should be, I noticed a huge difference in the formation of break material in this brew compared to all other brews I've done. This time the break was big fluffy stuff that was completely seperate to the wort which was bright and clear against it.

Going to get another water source i have tested as an alternative to the one I've been using in the hope its a bit harder...

[cumbrianwolf]

Still awaiting my PH meter, but not to worry as I have no time no motivation at this time as started a new job with long drawn out hours and even less free time! Oh well the malt and hops are taking no harm at this point.

Part one of the new kit allowance was the purchase of an immersion wort chiller which has now arrived.