Let's Talk About High-Cohumulone English Hops...

[seymour]

So, I'd love to hear what you all think about this. Cohumulone is a compound in hops that some beer drinkers describe as harsh. It comes along with some trendy new-school high-alpha-acid hops, predominantly American types like Chinook until recently. I don't taste a harshness, or maybe I do, I mean I acknowledge Chinook is wilder and weedier than a clean noble Hallertau and Saaz or classic English Fuggles and Goldings. But it's not unpleasant to me. I'm not denying that other people taste it. I can't taste the soapiness in Cilantro either that a percentage of people definitely taste. We all have different sensitivities to different flavour compounds.

But now that other hop growing regions are on the high-alpha-acid breeding bandwagon, more new commercial types have as high-cohumulone as Chinook. In the UK, for instance: Target, Pioneer, Pilgrim, to name but a few.

So, do you guys perceive any of the same harshness that Chinook is accused of? I'm just curious. Discuss.

Cheers!
-Seymour

[Mr. Dripping]

I would never describe chinook as harsh......bold, yes.....but not harsh.
I've never brewed with target, but have had many beers that contain target.....to my pallet it is harsh; a very woody, rough bitterness. Unpleasant enough for me to avoid using it for my homebrew.
Pioneer is one I have tried and would never brew again with, I found it incredibly harsh.....coupled with high mineral content water it was horrible. The recipe was called Pie'n'Ear beer.....more like Pigs Ear

We all have different sensitivities to different flavour compounds

This is it for me. We all perceive taste in a different way.....some of us are super-tasters and some of us have a dulled sense of taste.
I love the bold American hops, but I know many people who have a distinct dislike of them.
I know there are cleverer men than me at work on this sort of stuff, but I feel that it is far too simplistic to say that high cohumulone hops impart a harsh bitterness.

One can understand the drive towards higher alpha cultivars, but I think each hop needs to be evaluated individually before slapping a particular sticker on it.

[mozza]

I can only really comment on Target. I love the stuff for bittering. Perfect in English ales because it's such a dark dominating hop.

I'd like to add that nearly every hop I can think of tastes harsh if too much is added- that's just me though

[PhilB]

Hi Seymour

I thought the whole thing about cohumulone providing harsh bitterness had been discredited ... these comments from there (link) ...

Traditionally, cohumulone (R=isobutyryl) has been considered to add a harsh, unpleasant bitterness to beer, and so low-cohumulone varieties were considered more desirable for brewing purposes ... However, recently the role of cohumulone has been called into question, as new high-alpha hop varieties that are also high in cohumulone have come onto the market which are considered to impart a good bitterness.

... and from there (link) ...

"I don't buy into the cohumulone equals 'harsh bitterness' theory. I also believe that the cohumulone argument is independent of how you are utilizing the hops-kettle hopping or late hopping. Some of the best smelling hops in the world are high in cohumulone and I plan to continue using them."

Given that a number of brewers report a less harsh bitter from late hopping, it might be a lesser issue than first thought. It might be more important to select late hops based on their flavors and aromas first, and their cohumulone fraction second.

... at least suggest it's being seriously questioned anyway

Of the high-alpha English varieties you've mentioned I've only used Target, both as the main bittering hop and late & dry hopped (in conjunction with Challenger (Is that a hop high in cohumulone ) ... but I've not experienced any harshness

Cheers, PhilB

[Barley Water]

I'm one of those low cohumulone hop guys and I also detest Chinook because in my opinion it tends to get harsh quick. Like anything else, this effect is dosage dependent and there are other factors in play, especially water chemistry. I have been tinkering in this hobby for a long time (25+ years) and for much of that time I stayed away from hoppy beers. For whatever reason over the last two or three years I have gotten much more interested in the hoppy stuff but I am extremely picky. I'm not sure what you guys have available to you over there in the way of American stuff but Arrogant Bastard is the flagship beer at Stone (or was) and frankly I hate it primarily because I find the bitterness really crude and harsh (yup, a lot of Chinook in the beer). On the other hand, Dogfish Head 60 is my go to favorite and they feature low cohumulone hops (Warrior, Amarillo & Simcoe) and the bitterness is really smooth. I am personally of the opinion that almost anybody can make a bitter beer, the trick is to make it bitter but smooth and drinkable without a big hop bite.

I don't have a lot of experience with a couple of the hops mentioned above except Target. I have not personally had any problems with it but to be honest I have not pushed the levels up when using it like I would when making American stuff. For the last couple of years I have made an English IPA which has done pretty well in competition. It's a 1.065 beer and I used Target and Challenger with some nice Kent Goldings as I recall and was targeting 50 IBU's. My last batch was dry hopped with Styrian which I thought worked out great and will for sure do again. I am considering bumping the bitterness just slightly this year and I may run into issues, we will see. Generally speaking I think English ales tend to be a lot less bitter then the American beers so you don't tend to run into the "harsh" issue nearly as often.

Naturally all this is personal preference and I have not done anything close to a study; I have just partaken in more than my fair share of different beers. Peoples tastes are different and what any given person can detect flavor wise can be radically different than the next fellow (for instance some people can not taste diacetyl while others pick it up right away). Just because I don't care for Stone beers means nothing, they are getting rich using Chinook and I say good on 'um.

[Clibit]

It's all just about different tastes I'm sure, some people use the word harsh to describe Chinook because it has a powerful flavour, and they don't like that. Other people like the strong flavour of Chinook.

Likewise some people don't like Simcoe because, although it is low cohumulone, it has a powerful pine grapefruit flavour nonetheless, and some people hate that.

I' seem to be really unfussy - I don't like everything the same amount, but I can drink any beer, and i enjoy the experience of new flavours. I like delicate beers and I like in yer face beers. I've also learned to like beers I once didn't like at all - so some of this is about acquiring tastes. A lot of people seem to take one sip of a drink, or once mouthful of a food, and decide they don't like it. You can train yourself to like new things which at first seem unpleasant.

[charliemartin]

I would echo some of the comments above with regard to Target. The first beer I brewed with it had quite a harsh flavour which I did not enjoy, but I also used Amber malt in that beer for the first time so it may have been down to that. I have subsequently used Target as a smallish bittering addition in a few beers and have had no issues with harshness. It is quite economical to use in British styles, which as a Scotsman is always a bonus!

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[seymour]

Allright, c'mon you guys! Not a single responder yet has brewed or even sought-out a commercial beer with Pioneer or Pilgrim hops?! I only mentioned Target as a point of reference for a well-known UK hop which happens to have high cohumulone, but we all know Target doesn't taste so great. That's partly why the UK hops breeding program had a low reputation for awhile, but much has changed in recent years and they've done a lot of catching-up to modern hop-head tastes.

You all go crazy for the latest and greatest "it" high-alpha New World hops and know their every characteristic by heart. Yet your own country is quietly, desperately breeding your own complex contributions yet hardly anyone gives 'em a shot! These two aren't even obscure limited-release ones like Flyer, Archer, Jester, Minstrel, Olicana, etc. Pioneer and Pilgrim are proven and available in quantity. Isn't anyone at least curious enough to experiment? It seems to me these have desirable traits of bold New World super-alpha varieties on a solid, recognizeably English base...think Chinook-meets-Challenger or Amarillo-meets-Northern Brewer or Belma-meets-Fuggle...the best of both worlds.

Let's try a little harder and talk about this again in a couple months.

Sorry, I'm cranky. Long day. But anyone feel me?

[Mr. Dripping]

But anyone feel me?

Oh yeah!! Certainly enough to give the pioneer another go as my water was probably less than ideal. I'm also going to add some pilgrim to my next order. Let's have a look see then

[seymour]

But anyone feel me?

Oh yeah!! Certainly enough to give the pioneer another go as my water was probably less than ideal. I'm also going to add some pilgrim to my next order. Let's have a look see then

Cheers that, mate! I hope I haven't over-sold them, I mainly just wanted to have an informed conversation, y'know?

Happy brewing!

[Hanglow]

I always mean to try these hops but like you say the allure of the NZ and murican ones tend to tempt me for the big in your face hop flavours . I'll definitely try them at some point though

FWIW I recently brewed a Harviestoun Ptarmigan-ish clone as I liked that beer a lot but they stopped making it. when I was brewing a modified recipe of the one on here I realised that the hops used (challenger and saaz) wouldn't get the right flavours for that beer so I googled a bit and have seen it mentioned that it was actually finished with Pioneer. So I've certainly had a beer and liked it that used a fair amount of it id guess as an aroma/flavour hop

[charliemartin]

Inveralmond brewery uses Pilgrim hops in two beers. Independence, which also uses Saaz and Thrappledouser, which I have done a semi-clone of, though I didn't have any Pilgrim hops so subbed Challenger.
May have to do it again using Pilgrim.
Will put Pioneer and Pilgrim on the shopping list for future brews.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[YeastWhisperer]

Words cannot begin to describe how much I detest Chinook and Simcoe. Both of those hops smell like a well used litter box ("catty" is too mild of a description). Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale is a prime example of how harsh Chinook can be in a beer.

[Clibit]

I had two pints of a single hop Pilgrim pale in Manchester in May, and I really liked the hoppiness. I was on a first date but couldnt resist the opportunity to check out a hop I'd not knowingly tasted before.

I don't find any hops unpleasant. I like gentle flowery hops and intense in your face Chinook and the likes. Everything. As I remember, Pilgrim was nothing like Chinook in it's character, but was stronger than typical English hops. I think a fair amount is grown, in English terms, which must be for the AA, for bigger British breweries. It has the same father as First Gold, and some similarity in flavour. I think if you want a more bitter First Gold / Challenger style of hoppiness, but less refined, then Pilgrim is a good choice.

I bought some Pilgrim a few weeks ago but have been on a break from brewing, will be using them soon on my next brew though. They definitely appeal to me. Surprised they've not caught on more, but I've only had two pints of one beer, to be fair! It was a lovely refreshing cask ale though.

I'm also thinking of experimenting with English/American hop combinations. Goose Island IPA seems to prove it can work really well. It uses Pilgrim for bittering these days I believe. I may try a blend of Columbus and Pilgrim, or another UK hop. I believe Summit and First Gold blend well.

[Padalac]

I don't know too much about cohumolone per se, but I've never had a problem with chinook... I haven't used target but I have used admiral quite a bit.. and man, for an english hop, its good! and the co-humolone is like 37-45%... Then again its a very high alpha hop. The last stuff I bought was pushing 17% AA.

Even first gold is fairly high in co-humolone..

I just brewed an all english session IPA yesterday focussing on modern english hops. Basically using all english hops but using modern hopping techniques and varieties.

Grist was:
90% Maris Otter
10% Biscuit Malt
Mash temp 64 C
OG came in at 1.048
Did a dual yeast pitch of West Yorkshire from Wyeast and Nottingham. Expecting a dry finish but with a bit of character from the West Yorkshire.

Now the interesting part. Hop schedule (batch size is around 20L)

FWH: - 3g of Admiral 16.8% AA(7 ibu)

10 mins - 18g Admiral 16.8% AA
10 mins - 30g First Gold 10.9% AA
10 mins - 15g Challenger ~11% AA
10 mins - 16g Flyer - 10.9% AA

0 mins - 18g Admiral 16.8% AA
0 mins - 30g First Gold 10.9% AA
0 mins 15g Challenger ~11% AA
0 mins - 16g Flyer - 10.9% AA

I am considering dry hopping it with more admiral..