My 10th Anniversary Brew

[Jim]

..........So the beer is open to the air, albeit it a very brief period during the swap over to the breather? Sorry for the what must seem like dumb questions - a completely new area of consideration to me.

No, the quick disconnects maintain a seal during the change-over. Air never enters the cask, but CO2 leaves during venting and is replenished during charging.

Right, got it! Am I right in thinking though that some folk have the breather in series with the main gas line, so there is only ever 37 mBars, (or whatever) applied to the beer, just enough pressure to serve.

I don't know for certain, but I do know that even with standard cask procedures, the cask is sealed up (with a hard spile) between sessions. If you just left it effectively at atmospheric pressure the condition would all disappear in a day or two.

[Dave S]

Hmm, I've clearly got a bit to learn yet.

[Jim]

Hmm, I've clearly got a bit to learn yet.

I'm still learning as well. There's very little out there on the net about the fine details of using cask breathers in pubs, let alone in a home brew situation.

[Jim]

Been searching around for info on using breathers and found this forum post from someone using them in a pub. He seems to advocate switching back to top pressure between sessions.

http://www.northhantsbrewers.org.uk/For ... ?f=5&t=635

EDIT: Now I read it again, I'm not sure if the poster was a homebrewer or pub cellarman.

[Dave S]

Been searching around for info on using breathers and found this forum post from someone using them in a pub. He seems to advocate switching back to top pressure between sessions.

http://www.northhantsbrewers.org.uk/For ... ?f=5&t=635

EDIT: Now I read it again, I'm not sure if the poster was a homebrewer or pub cellarman.

That kind of makes things a bit clearer, but what I'm thinking there is: when you switch from top pressure to Cask Breather, the beer will be dispensed under that top pressure until it subsides leaving the CB blanket. That could be a few pints down the line, couldn't it? Which makes me think, why bother with the Cask Breather?

[seymour]

Here's a little info from our member Fuggledog on his thread about oak pins from Theakstons. It sounds like he just leaves it on the whole time, but not sure what pressure level, etc. There used to be some great pictures on that thread, but appear to be unavailable now.

...i haven't tried long storage yet as i've been too busy using the casks for running beers...regarding serving the beer - you can use gravity or beer engines as per any cask. if i'm opening a pin and having a party i just remove the spile and let air in. if the cask is at the right temperature and the beer properly conditioned it will have just the right degree of sparkle for real ale. for longer-term consumption i use a cask breather. this replaces the drawn off beer with C02 but doesn't put pressure on the beer, so it doesn't go fizzy, flat or go off. cheers, b.

[Dave S]

Here's a little info from our member Fuggledog on his thread about oak pins from Theakstons. It sounds like he just leaves it on the whole time, but not sure what pressure level, etc. There used to be some great pictures on that thread, but appear to be unavailable now.

...i haven't tried long storage yet as i've been too busy using the casks for running beers...regarding serving the beer - you can use gravity or beer engines as per any cask. if i'm opening a pin and having a party i just remove the spile and let air in. if the cask is at the right temperature and the beer properly conditioned it will have just the right degree of sparkle for real ale. for longer-term consumption i use a cask breather. this replaces the drawn off beer with C02 but doesn't put pressure on the beer, so it doesn't go fizzy, flat or go off. cheers, b.

Yeah, getting differing messages, seems some do, some don't. I s'pose the only way is to try both and see which one works.

[Jim]

Been searching around for info on using breathers and found this forum post from someone using them in a pub. He seems to advocate switching back to top pressure between sessions.

http://www.northhantsbrewers.org.uk/For ... ?f=5&t=635

EDIT: Now I read it again, I'm not sure if the poster was a homebrewer or pub cellarman.

That kind of makes things a bit clearer, but what I'm thinking there is: when you switch from top pressure to Cask Breather, the beer will be dispensed under that top pressure until it subsides leaving the CB blanket. ........

No. As soon as you connect the breather to the cask, all excess pressure is vented immediately through the breather; then you can connect it to the beer engine and serve, at which point the breather supplies the correct amount of CO2 to keep the cask at atmospheric pressure as you remove beer.

Also, I don't accept that if you leave a cask at atmospheric pressure that it will maintain its condition. Over time, CO2 will come out of solution leaving it flat - think what happens if you leave carbonated beer in a glass overnight; next morning it's totally flat. If you look at a carbonation chart, the amount of CO2 in solution is directly related to the pressure in the container and the temperature of the beer, and will eventually reach a point of equilibrium (by CO2 entering or leaving solution) for any given pressure and temperature.

It may take longer for a caskfull of beer to lose its condition, but it will happen (probably in less than a week).

[Dave S]

Been searching around for info on using breathers and found this forum post from someone using them in a pub. He seems to advocate switching back to top pressure between sessions.

http://www.northhantsbrewers.org.uk/For ... ?f=5&t=635

EDIT: Now I read it again, I'm not sure if the poster was a homebrewer or pub cellarman.

That kind of makes things a bit clearer, but what I'm thinking there is: when you switch from top pressure to Cask Breather, the beer will be dispensed under that top pressure until it subsides leaving the CB blanket. ........

No. As soon as you connect the breather to the cask, all excess pressure is vented immediately through the breather; then you can connect it to the beer engine and serve, at which point the breather supplies the correct amount of CO2 to keep the cask at atmospheric pressure as you remove beer.

Also, I don't accept that if you leave a cask at atmospheric pressure that it will maintain its condition. Over time, CO2 will come out of solution leaving it flat - think what happens if you leave carbonated beer in a glass overnight; next morning it's totally flat. If you look at a carbonation chart, the amount of CO2 in solution is directly related to the pressure in the container and the temperature of the beer, and will eventually reach a point of equilibrium (by CO2 entering or leaving solution) for any given pressure and temperature.

It may take longer for a caskfull of beer to lose its condition, but it will happen (probably in less than a week).

I think when pipe up I'll make it so I can just switch from one to the other rather than having to disconnect one and re-connect the other. I see you are using a 'real' breather, whereas I'll be using a 37 mBar propane regulator. Hopefully it will work just as well.

[Fuggledog]

From memory I used to 'seal' the cask between sessions by turning off a jg tap fitted inline between spile/cask and breather. Condition will still be lost over time as the beer isn't under pressure so as the cask empties the pressure will just equalise to atmospheric. If you use a beer engine with swanneck and sparkler it's not really noticeable. With gravity or southern dispense I think you would notice the reduction in condition after around 12 hours (very approx) - so in that situation if it bothered you, topping up the head pressure in a cold environment might help a bit? It comes down to personal taste and how much you want to capture that 'recently tapped' texture

[seymour]

...whereas I'll be using a 37 mBar propane regulator. Hopefully it will work just as well.

I've heard of this, but never seen exactly how to configure things. Very curious, as it appears to be about 1/4 the cost. Can you share any links or pictures or anything?

[Jim]

From memory I used to 'seal' the cask between sessions by turning off a jg tap fitted inline between spile/cask and breather. Condition will still be lost over time as the beer isn't under pressure so as the cask empties the pressure will just equalise to atmospheric. If you use a beer engine with swanneck and sparkler it's not really noticeable. With gravity or southern dispense I think you would notice the reduction in condition after around 12 hours (very approx) - so in that situation if it bothered you, topping up the head pressure in a cold environment might help a bit? It comes down to personal taste and how much you want to capture that 'recently tapped' texture

That makes sense. Closing the jg tap is the equivalent of putting the hard spile back in between sessions. I would bet pubs using cask breathers have a similar arrangement.

An alternatively would be a one-way valve between breather and cask, though the problem with that is that pressure might build up during a session if the cask was idle for a while and push beer through the beer engine. Maybe, I'm not sure if that would happen or not.

[Dave S]

...whereas I'll be using a 37 mBar propane regulator. Hopefully it will work just as well.

I've heard of this, but never seen exactly how to configure things. Very curious, as it appears to be about 1/4 the cost. Can you share any links or pictures or anything?

I did have a link, but foolishly haven't saved it. I'll see if I can find it again. Essentially the the gas reg goes in exactly the same position as the conventional breather, i.e. between the secondary reg of your gas bottle and your keg gas in post. I'll get back to you later, Seymour if I can find the link.

[Dave S]

Seymour, there is this which is good but no pics. I thought I was looking at one with a diagram, but I've looked at that many sites I could be wrong. If I find it I'll post it up.