Tastes stale and smells like wet cardboard

[Maldon John]

I am really struggling to drink a pale ale I kegged two months ago. It was 90% Pale malt,10% Wheat malt, hops Cascade/Willamette in boil, Citra dry hop. The yeast was MM West Coast.
Going into th FV it was crystal clear and tasted fine. Fermented at 19c then cold crashed at 4c for 7 days. It never cleared at all and that's when I first noticed the stale taste/ old socks aroma.
Two months on there is no sign of it clearing and the staleness is still there. The hop flavour/ aroma is still present though.
I'm thinking maybe oxidisation?
Should I persevere any longer with it or tip it?

John

[davew]

Be fine with a dash of lemonade that's what I'd do.

[Maldon John]

Yeah there is always the shandy option

[Eadweard]

Sounds very much like oxidation to me. You can blend out poor beer with other beer instead of lemonade!

[scuppeteer]

Or you can have twice as much crap beer to drink.

I had a beer a couple of years ago that tasted of cardboard, I worked it out to the dry hop pellets I used that were past their best. There is only so much cardboard you can drink... the drain got the better part of it in the end.

[The Epworth Brewer]

I can't help you with the cause, although I have had similar brews in the last 18 months or so and thought I was losing my touch. But I would be very reluctant to bin it unless you need the barrel for another brew, or if by now you have supped so much that the dregs aren't worth keeping. If you are not desperate for the barrel and it has maintained enough co2 without drawing air in then why rush to the sink?

In the summer I brewed Bathams Bitter from BYO using a Brupaks 'Tea Bag' in the fermenter. When I took the lid off at the end of fermentation there was a blue mouldy film on the surface. First thoughts were to bin it but I kegged it anyway and it was one of the best I have ever brewed. I repeated it a few weeks ago, the only difference being I upped the bitterness from 30 units to 40. No mildew this time so in theory it should be better than the first time. But it has a haze that is not going to disappear now and when I first tried it the taste was acidic and the smell was stale. Now, 4 weeks on the stale smell has gone and although it is still hazy the taste is quite acceptable although it wouldn't win any prizes.

One thing I will say is that I have been brewing for over 40 years, starting out with Tom Caxton kits (good grief, how bad were they???) and progressing to all grain when I first came across Dave Line's book 30+ years ago. I do not profess to know anywhere near as much as some members on here but until the last year or so I had never heard of this so called 'crash cooling' or 'crash chilling'. Have you done that because it is an American style Pale Ale you have brewed? Whenever I have had haze problems it has always seemed to centre around temperatures in the room the barrel is in. I find that some ales only appear hazy if they are too cold. Crash chilling is something I would never do, but then I only brew traditional English style ales. On the odd occasion when I have experimented with american hops they are almost always the brews that disappoint.

[seymour]

Sounds very much like oxidation to me...

+1, no doubt about it.

It could be that oxygen got to the beer itself and oxidized it. But then, you said the hop character is still nice, which makes this possibility unlikely. I suspect your original grains. Next time you brew, make sure to use the freshest possible base malt, and wait to crush it until immediately before you brew. You can get your own Corona-style grainmill quite cheap, and even motorize it with a basic power drill if you like. These simple suggestions will make worlds of difference in your final beer.

[RobWalker]

At this point, I'd add a fining agent. what kegs are you using? are they kept out of light?

[BenB]

I'm very confused about crushed malt. Everyone says it's important to use it up rapidly but the crushed bagged grain I always get has a very long shelflife printed on it. So which is right?

There is a suggestion my beers have been adversely effected by oxidisation so I'm keen to find out what impact it would have!

[DeadFall]

I'm very confused about crushed malt. Everyone says it's important to use it up rapidly but the crushed bagged grain I always get has a very long shelflife printed on it. So which is right?

There is a suggestion my beers have been adversely effected by oxidisation so I'm keen to find out what impact it would have!

I definitely noticed a difference. My last brew was made up of very fresh crushed malt and some that was crushed a couple of months earlier. The new stuff smelled stronger and a lot fresher/cleaner than the older. I suspect that will carry through to the beer. Hence I've just ordered a mill

[seymour]

...but the crushed bagged grain I always get has a very long shelflife printed on it. So which is right?...

Well, not to sound overly cynical, but you have to admit the supplier has a conflict of interest there.

...There is a suggestion my beers have been adversely effected by oxidisation so I'm keen to find out what impact it would have!

Your answer's in your question. Try some fresher malt with a fresh crush next time and gauge the difference for yourself. It's substantial.

That said, I sure don't want to make you feel bad about your beer or your process. If you personally don't find anything objectionable about it, then there is no need to change anything.

[BenB]

Okay, so I'm guessing new grain will make better beer but it won't make "bad" beer if it's crushed a month or so ago, perhaps just not as fresh and "live" as new grain? I've got a brew planned for the end of this week and am not sure whether the bagged crushed grain I bought a month ago (still unopened) is going to cause the oxidised / musty flavour the BJCP judges found in my Porter. Would be a shame to have a fancy milar vacuum bagger for re-sealing hops between first use and dry-hoping and then muck up the grain side of things! I reckon there's something more significant going on to cause the musty oxidised smell!

Looks like a mill can go onto the list for Christmas!

[seymour]

Okay, so I'm guessing new grain will make better beer but it won't make "bad" beer if it's crushed a month or so ago, perhaps just not as fresh and "live" as new grain?

Yeah, that's the basic idea. I think you could probably get away with older crushed crystal malts and specialty grains which are only a small percentage of the grainbill, but your beer will definitely benefit from the freshest base malts possible.

But BenB, I'm of two minds about this whole thing with regards to what follows. In your case, just starting out, I wouldn't stress about it. I'm describing a "best practice" but lots of brewers use older ingredients all the time and produce perfectly drinkable beer. There is nothing inherantly wrong with some mild oxidation, it can actually be a pleasant nuance in certain styles...like, say...ahem, porter.

...not sure whether the bagged crushed grain I bought a month ago (still unopened) is going to cause the oxidised / musty flavour the BJCP judges found in my Porter...

I read about that in your other post and have been biting my tongue. Please don't take that particular advice to heart. BJCP judges don't know a butt load of crap about porter. Historically, porter was aged for a year in wooden barrels and surely presented profound brett funkiness. So, from that point of view, your beer couldn't possibly have been oxidized or sour enough.

I commend your serious approach to brewing, though. Carry on.

[The Epworth Brewer]

I'm very confused about crushed malt. Everyone says it's important to use it up rapidly but the crushed bagged grain I always get has a very long shelflife printed on it. So which is right?

There is a suggestion my beers have been adversely effected by oxidisation so I'm keen to find out what impact it would have!

You're not the only one who is confused by this. So much so that I'm going to start a new thread as the matter of freshness seems to me to throw up a whole lot of questions as to the best way to buy pale malt.

[Maldon John]

Thanks for all the comments. I am going to persevere with it a bit longer.

Scuppeteer: The hops had been hanging around a while but they smelt ok.

The Epworth Brewer: I am led to believe the crash cooling encourages the yeast to drop out quicker.Once the beer temperature is raised to serving temperature any chill haze usually disappears. I always find my Pale Ales are clearer using this method(except on this occasion)

Seymour: The pale malt was from a 25kg sack( purchased a week before brewing). I have subsequently brewed using this grain without any issues.I am definitely going to try crushing my own grain just before brewing to see for myself if there is an improvement

Rob Walker: Gelatine was added to the secondary FV. The stale/wet cardboard taste was noticed before
transfering to my corny.