Oatmeal stout, can I use rolled oats?
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andypettitt62
Oatmeal stout, can I use rolled oats?
I am planning on brewing some Samuel Smiths Oatmeal stout tomorrow, and was wondering if i can substitute rolled oats for flaked oats.If not, change of plans, possibly Styrian stunner.
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Frothy
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steve_flack
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oblivious
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steve_flack
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David Edge
Dr John Harrison - the brains behind Durden Park - reckoned the cheapest supermarket instant oats were the best!Frothy wrote:It has been mentioned that you can use instant oats breakfast cereal (as available in supermarkets) but from reading the label I think this is just rolled oats + oat flour. I could be wrong.
Frothy
We like the Durden Park Maclays 63/- recipe - at 30% porage oats I think it needs a beta glucanase rest at 40C with some pale to avoid a stuck mash; better brewers than me get away without it though.
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J_P
Hi DavidDavid Edge wrote:at 30% porage oats I think it needs a beta glucanase rest at 40C with some pale to avoid a stuck mash; better brewers than me get away without it though.
I'm new to grain beer and am planning on making an oatmeal stout this weekend, I was wondering what a beta glucanase rest is and how I would go about performing one. Presumably it's something to do with an enzyme. Could I do it the night before I brew to save time on the day?
Cheers
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PieOPah
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David Edge
JP:
> was wondering what a beta glucanase rest is and how I would go about performing one.
Well a 'rest' is just a step in the mash. You mash the flaked oats with some pale and leave it at 40C for half an hour and then raise the temp to 66C to do the starch conversion. That's the tricky bit to which I'll return...
>Presumably it's something to do with an enzyme.
Yes. Beta glucans are the gummy bits that help stick up a mash. Oat flakes are particularly rich in them, although mated oats don't cause me stuck sparges. Either, I guess, because the malting breaks down those gums or there is lots and lots of husk in oat malt.
Enzymes for breaking things down have the same name as the thing with a suffix -ase. So beta glucanase breaks down beta glucans. It's a natural enzyme in the malted barley, but I suspect (help please biochemists) that once oats have been squeezed between heater rollers the enzymes have been destroyed. So I add some (say about half as much) pale to supply the enzyme. 40C is the temperature beta glucanase works well at without denaturing (breaking down) too fast.
>Could I do it the night before I brew to save time on the day?
I wouldn't. Again others may have their opinions, but you risk lactobaccilus souring the mash and worse. Also the grist will be colder and harder to heat (I'll ge there yet).
So, the heating. What I do is, with a little help from the Cardinal, mash in the flaked oats and some pale a stockpot for half an hour - it looks a lot, but it's a 45 litre batch. Get it to 40C by playing with hot and cold water. I only needed to wrap it in a towel and it didn't lose a lot of heat.
Then very, very gently raise the temp on the stove, stirring continuously. If your mash tun lets you get to 66C or whatever just by adding very hot water, so much the better - protects the enzymes. Meanwhile mash the rest of the grist in, get it to the mash temperature and then add your flaked oat mash.
I've made seven batches to date. Only two have sparged well - the others took all day. The last two were made with this technique. Congratulationd to all those who can mash a grist with 30% flaked oats, I can't.
Maybe the best advice though is to limit yourself to 10-15% flaked oats for your first batch. You'll still get the character without the pain.
> was wondering what a beta glucanase rest is and how I would go about performing one.
Well a 'rest' is just a step in the mash. You mash the flaked oats with some pale and leave it at 40C for half an hour and then raise the temp to 66C to do the starch conversion. That's the tricky bit to which I'll return...
>Presumably it's something to do with an enzyme.
Yes. Beta glucans are the gummy bits that help stick up a mash. Oat flakes are particularly rich in them, although mated oats don't cause me stuck sparges. Either, I guess, because the malting breaks down those gums or there is lots and lots of husk in oat malt.
Enzymes for breaking things down have the same name as the thing with a suffix -ase. So beta glucanase breaks down beta glucans. It's a natural enzyme in the malted barley, but I suspect (help please biochemists) that once oats have been squeezed between heater rollers the enzymes have been destroyed. So I add some (say about half as much) pale to supply the enzyme. 40C is the temperature beta glucanase works well at without denaturing (breaking down) too fast.
>Could I do it the night before I brew to save time on the day?
I wouldn't. Again others may have their opinions, but you risk lactobaccilus souring the mash and worse. Also the grist will be colder and harder to heat (I'll ge there yet).
So, the heating. What I do is, with a little help from the Cardinal, mash in the flaked oats and some pale a stockpot for half an hour - it looks a lot, but it's a 45 litre batch. Get it to 40C by playing with hot and cold water. I only needed to wrap it in a towel and it didn't lose a lot of heat.
Then very, very gently raise the temp on the stove, stirring continuously. If your mash tun lets you get to 66C or whatever just by adding very hot water, so much the better - protects the enzymes. Meanwhile mash the rest of the grist in, get it to the mash temperature and then add your flaked oat mash.
I've made seven batches to date. Only two have sparged well - the others took all day. The last two were made with this technique. Congratulationd to all those who can mash a grist with 30% flaked oats, I can't.
Maybe the best advice though is to limit yourself to 10-15% flaked oats for your first batch. You'll still get the character without the pain.
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J_P
That's brilliant info David and the cardinal looks like he knows what he's doing. My revised grain bill is now as follows. Adapted from here
3.5 kg Maris Otter
0.5Kg Porridge Oats ~ 11%
0.3Kg Black Malt
0.3Kg Crystal Malt
I'll mash the porridge oats with 0.25KG of Pale malt at 40C for 30 minutes in my jam pan whilst heating my mash water up to strike temperature. Once the 30 minutes is up I just dough in as normal and make sure the oats are spread right the way through the other grains and then mash as normal. Does this sound about right?
I have been reading up on these "rests" and have found the following page on Wiki and wondered what your opinion on a protein rest would be given that other users have experienced a lack of head on oatmeal stout?
Oh hang On I've just realised what the two stage temperature mash is all about in the original recipe, it's a protein rest that must be how he got the tight head the judges commented on. This might end up being a three stage mash
I notice the beer above the original recipe is by a Mr Ralf Edge any relation?
3.5 kg Maris Otter
0.5Kg Porridge Oats ~ 11%
0.3Kg Black Malt
0.3Kg Crystal Malt
I'll mash the porridge oats with 0.25KG of Pale malt at 40C for 30 minutes in my jam pan whilst heating my mash water up to strike temperature. Once the 30 minutes is up I just dough in as normal and make sure the oats are spread right the way through the other grains and then mash as normal. Does this sound about right?
I have been reading up on these "rests" and have found the following page on Wiki and wondered what your opinion on a protein rest would be given that other users have experienced a lack of head on oatmeal stout?
Oh hang On I've just realised what the two stage temperature mash is all about in the original recipe, it's a protein rest that must be how he got the tight head the judges commented on. This might end up being a three stage mash
I notice the beer above the original recipe is by a Mr Ralf Edge any relation?
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Frothy
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J_P
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David Edge
Frothy:
>Can we even get hold of flaked oats?
Porage oats - Scotts or whatever. I originally wrote 'oatmeal' throughout and changed it because that isn't cooked.
J_P:
>Once the 30 minutes is up I just dough in as normal and make sure the oats are spread right the way through the other grains and then mash as normal. Does this sound about right?
The oat mixture will draw the temp down, so you either need to warm it before adding or have enough space in the MT to add more hot water. Either way's fine.
>wondered what your opinion on a protein rest would be given that other users have experienced a lack of head on oatmeal stout? Oh hang On I've just realised what the two stage temperature mash is all about in the original recipe, it's a protein rest that must be how he got the tight head the judges commented on. This might end up being a three stage mash
Apart from oatmeal stouts I'm a single temperature brewer. The usual answer for poor head retention with oatmeal is the relatively high oil content. Even at 30% oats it's never bothered me. I'd have thought a protein rest might have reduced head-forming proteins. But I'm out of my depth. I think you'll get a perfectly good beer with 40C and 66C.
>I notice the beer above the original recipe is by a Mr Ralf Edge any relation?
Yes, that's our head brewer. Here he is:
and while we're at it, the third Signalbox brewer - Elena the Cleaner - who thought that pretending to be Paddington might be an entertaining way to spend a birthday out on the trains. It was too.
[/img]
>Can we even get hold of flaked oats?
Porage oats - Scotts or whatever. I originally wrote 'oatmeal' throughout and changed it because that isn't cooked.
J_P:
>Once the 30 minutes is up I just dough in as normal and make sure the oats are spread right the way through the other grains and then mash as normal. Does this sound about right?
The oat mixture will draw the temp down, so you either need to warm it before adding or have enough space in the MT to add more hot water. Either way's fine.
>wondered what your opinion on a protein rest would be given that other users have experienced a lack of head on oatmeal stout? Oh hang On I've just realised what the two stage temperature mash is all about in the original recipe, it's a protein rest that must be how he got the tight head the judges commented on. This might end up being a three stage mash
Apart from oatmeal stouts I'm a single temperature brewer. The usual answer for poor head retention with oatmeal is the relatively high oil content. Even at 30% oats it's never bothered me. I'd have thought a protein rest might have reduced head-forming proteins. But I'm out of my depth. I think you'll get a perfectly good beer with 40C and 66C.
>I notice the beer above the original recipe is by a Mr Ralf Edge any relation?
Yes, that's our head brewer. Here he is:
and while we're at it, the third Signalbox brewer - Elena the Cleaner - who thought that pretending to be Paddington might be an entertaining way to spend a birthday out on the trains. It was too.
[/img]-
Vossy1
I also want to do an oatmeal stout soon and have been following this thread closely, leading to a couple of questions.
Have any members with a RIMS/HERMS tried a rest period with any of the 'classic' stuck mash ingredients, ie, wheat malt, oats etc?
If so did you increase the liquor/malt ratio?
Can you rest the entire malt quantity ?
Have any members with a RIMS/HERMS tried a rest period with any of the 'classic' stuck mash ingredients, ie, wheat malt, oats etc?
If so did you increase the liquor/malt ratio?
Can you rest the entire malt quantity ?