How improtant is water treatment?
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slurp the apprentice
- Piss Artist
- Posts: 224
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:47 pm
- Location: sheffield
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Scooby
I use one from B&Q. tenner I think.slurp the apprentice wrote:I have voted no i tend to brew mostly pale ales and i have not found this a problem although i may yet go for a water filtration system just to see if there is an improvement.what type of water filtration are being used by forum members?
Search for 'point of use water filters' or some such.
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SteveD
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David Edge
Not sure why people filter. Thoughts anyone?
We spray into HLT the evening before and the chlorine has dispered by the next day. For bitter I use 3ml phosphoric per 66 litres, Janette (the missus) uses 5ml - that's just a function of your local water and our tastes. We've never got too excited about pH; once you've knocked out the buffering power of carbonates the mash seems to take over.
A lot of people have said 'my beers all right without so why bother'. I suppose it depends how good you want your beer to be. Ours was good before, but the telltale sign was that the dark beers were better than the pale ones. Bit of a clue there!
If you suffer from beerstone deposits, a little calcium stirred well into the grist might be worth it for that alone.
We spray into HLT the evening before and the chlorine has dispered by the next day. For bitter I use 3ml phosphoric per 66 litres, Janette (the missus) uses 5ml - that's just a function of your local water and our tastes. We've never got too excited about pH; once you've knocked out the buffering power of carbonates the mash seems to take over.
A lot of people have said 'my beers all right without so why bother'. I suppose it depends how good you want your beer to be. Ours was good before, but the telltale sign was that the dark beers were better than the pale ones. Bit of a clue there!
If you suffer from beerstone deposits, a little calcium stirred well into the grist might be worth it for that alone.
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SteveD
That might be because :-DaaB wrote: There are experienced brewers here who don't bother with any sort of chlorine or chloramine removal and their beer turns out fine.
(1) Experienced doesn't necessarily mean good - you can have bags of experience in making the same mistakes over and over again. Me, for one.
(2) A lot of people think their beer is fine, until others try it.
(3) Assuming the above doesn't apply, then they may be brewing in a way which removes the chlorine inadvertedly, eg, pre-boiling the liquor to remove carbonate hardness will also boil off chlorine, ditto with top up and sparge liquor.
Unless chlorine levels are very low, I can't see how dumping fresh chlorinated water into the mash, or the FV, is going to produce decent beer. Rather, what is likely is varying levels of medicinal off tastes.
Nobody, anywhere, in any book I've ever seen, has said, "it's fine, just use tap water untreated, never mind the chlorine."
Well, except maybe in those laughable coffee table picture books on 'HOME WINEMAKING (and brewing)' that also urge you to add tons of sugar 'some hops', caramel or black treacle, boil the whole lot together for 10 mins with some pale malt, etc, cool, pitch the yeast, ferment in an airing cupboard at 27-30c.
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David Edge
As Steve's points plus
DaaB:
>As I have always understood it, water companys are now using chloramines which have a similar effect to chlorine but they are a lot more stable so don't gas off.
Depends on the water company. ST generally uses chlorine, but uses chloramine where it interfaces to bits of Anglian Water that also use it. Chloramine is also more likely on long rural runs as it is more persistent. It's easy enough to find out by either asking the water board or leaving water overnight in a jug and seeing if chlorine remains.
Daab:
>Granular Activated Charcoal filters strip out chlorine and chloramines as well as pesticides and other orgainics (so the blurb says).
I'm far too parsimonious to spend time and money on a filter that does nowt that a Campden tablet doesn't - unless you thing that organics levels are high in your water. But I'm outdone by James McCrorie who thinks Campden tablets are too expensive and just adds a squirt of 10% metabisulphite from a bottle he keeps for the purpose! I guess that's the difference between being bought up on the North side of the Clyde and the South!
DaaB:
>As I have always understood it, water companys are now using chloramines which have a similar effect to chlorine but they are a lot more stable so don't gas off.
Depends on the water company. ST generally uses chlorine, but uses chloramine where it interfaces to bits of Anglian Water that also use it. Chloramine is also more likely on long rural runs as it is more persistent. It's easy enough to find out by either asking the water board or leaving water overnight in a jug and seeing if chlorine remains.
Daab:
>Granular Activated Charcoal filters strip out chlorine and chloramines as well as pesticides and other orgainics (so the blurb says).
I'm far too parsimonious to spend time and money on a filter that does nowt that a Campden tablet doesn't - unless you thing that organics levels are high in your water. But I'm outdone by James McCrorie who thinks Campden tablets are too expensive and just adds a squirt of 10% metabisulphite from a bottle he keeps for the purpose! I guess that's the difference between being bought up on the North side of the Clyde and the South!
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SteveD
He treats his water now. Maybe because the water companies are using chloramine now, but definitely to sort out PH in the mash and sparge.DaaB wrote:I was reffering to Seveneer.
I don't really understand the 'I don't bother' brigade when it comes to liquor treatment even at the basic level of cholrine removal and bicarbonate reduction, which can be as simple as a campden tab or two, and a couple of teaspoons of lactic acid in the liquor. (50L liquor)
It's so easy, and cheap, and is so beneficial to the beer that it simply isn't worth NOT doing. It's as if some people don't want any extra advantages but would rather press on with all the disadvantages instead! What with chlorine and bicarb levels yo-yoing around these days as water companies buy their water, sooner or later they'll produce TCP!
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David Edge
> He has had his beer sampled by the NHBC
I'd have thought the National House Building Council would have been more interested in the flavour of tea than beer. And speaking of which; you're quite riight about that beverage - I was really wondering about why you'd filter for beer alone.
You'll get away with it - as I do - with some combinations of low chlorine levels, spraying to fill, heating a bit beofre you start brewing and large HLT (heats more slowly so chlorine has longer to escape).
But the general point about not assuming your beer is ok until you've tried it with others is important. On average one in thirty of us is insensitive to any given aroma. For example some people can't spot the smoke in Laphroaig! There's also a school of homebrewer that never goes to the pub and has just got used to it. And there are some off tastes you just get used to - I can't get excited about skunking becuase I became accustomed to it from drinking supermarket beer - yet one person I know will retch at the other end of the room when a skunked bottle is opened.
If the water board ever puts a heavy charge of chlorine down Seveneer's pipes after some maintenance he may get a nasty shock.
I'd have thought the National House Building Council would have been more interested in the flavour of tea than beer. And speaking of which; you're quite riight about that beverage - I was really wondering about why you'd filter for beer alone.
You'll get away with it - as I do - with some combinations of low chlorine levels, spraying to fill, heating a bit beofre you start brewing and large HLT (heats more slowly so chlorine has longer to escape).
But the general point about not assuming your beer is ok until you've tried it with others is important. On average one in thirty of us is insensitive to any given aroma. For example some people can't spot the smoke in Laphroaig! There's also a school of homebrewer that never goes to the pub and has just got used to it. And there are some off tastes you just get used to - I can't get excited about skunking becuase I became accustomed to it from drinking supermarket beer - yet one person I know will retch at the other end of the room when a skunked bottle is opened.
If the water board ever puts a heavy charge of chlorine down Seveneer's pipes after some maintenance he may get a nasty shock.
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David Edge
Daab:
> Neither do I but there are some sceptical brewers out there, one member here in particular is convinced we are trying to poison him by suggesting he should add 1/2 a campden tablet to his water.
Ah - perhaps a disciple of Clive la Pensée who claims that the cure is worse than the disease. But it all boils (ho ho ho) down to getting together at group meetings and festivals to see whether these homoeopaths, hippies and huggers of trees are producing good beer or not!
> Neither do I but there are some sceptical brewers out there, one member here in particular is convinced we are trying to poison him by suggesting he should add 1/2 a campden tablet to his water.
Ah - perhaps a disciple of Clive la Pensée who claims that the cure is worse than the disease. But it all boils (ho ho ho) down to getting together at group meetings and festivals to see whether these homoeopaths, hippies and huggers of trees are producing good beer or not!
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Seveneer
As Steve said, I do now make adjustments although I was happy with my beer beforehand.
My point was, and still is, that many people make very good beer without water treatment as I did for 20 years. Now that I do treat the water I find the beers taste cleaner so I agree there is benefit to doing so but I wouldn't be quite so passionate about it as some.
That said, if I'd had a water supply that was high in chlorine I'd probably have started treating my liquor earlier than I did and insist that everyone else should be doing the same.
/Phil.
My point was, and still is, that many people make very good beer without water treatment as I did for 20 years. Now that I do treat the water I find the beers taste cleaner so I agree there is benefit to doing so but I wouldn't be quite so passionate about it as some.
That said, if I'd had a water supply that was high in chlorine I'd probably have started treating my liquor earlier than I did and insist that everyone else should be doing the same.
/Phil.
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Graham
I'll sit on the fence here (and not vote), because I am in two minds. There are beneficial effects to water treatment, but whether it is absolutely necessary or not is open to debate. My early take was was not to frighten off a beginner with the subject of water treatment. Before HSA reared its mythical head, most of the hot air on the forums, and in books, was expended on water treatment. Water treatment was something for the experienced brewer to play with, and I didn't want to scare a beginner.
I have said things to the effect of: "There is no water supply in Britain that will make bad beer". Now I am not so sure, particularly after reading Jim's experiences in another thread. Although the majority of us will have no problem with untreated water, it is obvious that it isn't always the case, there are a few problem areas. (I don't regard filtering or adding a campden tablet to be water treatment in this context - that is done for different reasons). There will be no universal answer. It all comes down to mash pH in the end.
I have to learn more about Jim's water situation. I fully appreciate that there is one hell of a difference in water.
Years ago a girlfriend and I went to stay on her relative's farm just out side of Durham. On our first night she decided that she needed a bath after the long journey. She started to run the bath, plonked into it her usual generous quantity of bubble-bath, and went into the bedroom to prepare herself. Yep - like a laurel and Hardy film - foam everywhere.
Jim's water is nothing like that of the rest of us, that's for sure
I have said things to the effect of: "There is no water supply in Britain that will make bad beer". Now I am not so sure, particularly after reading Jim's experiences in another thread. Although the majority of us will have no problem with untreated water, it is obvious that it isn't always the case, there are a few problem areas. (I don't regard filtering or adding a campden tablet to be water treatment in this context - that is done for different reasons). There will be no universal answer. It all comes down to mash pH in the end.
I have to learn more about Jim's water situation. I fully appreciate that there is one hell of a difference in water.
Years ago a girlfriend and I went to stay on her relative's farm just out side of Durham. On our first night she decided that she needed a bath after the long journey. She started to run the bath, plonked into it her usual generous quantity of bubble-bath, and went into the bedroom to prepare herself. Yep - like a laurel and Hardy film - foam everywhere.
Jim's water is nothing like that of the rest of us, that's for sure
To be honest, I'm coming round to the opinion that the best water-treatment strategy for the home brewer (other than chlorine removal) is to brew beers that work well with the water they have.
I tend to make light beers, as that's the best way to stop my mash getting too acidic.
I spent years adding gypsum and calcium carbonate as recommended by DL and others, but I honestly think it was a waste of time - most of it ended up settling out at the bottom of the 'treatment' vessel the next day (that was when my routine was to add the gypsum or whatever, stir and leave overnight). These 'hardening' salts are just too insoluble - unless you add them to the mash, where the acidity helps them to dissolve.
I tend to make light beers, as that's the best way to stop my mash getting too acidic.
I spent years adding gypsum and calcium carbonate as recommended by DL and others, but I honestly think it was a waste of time - most of it ended up settling out at the bottom of the 'treatment' vessel the next day (that was when my routine was to add the gypsum or whatever, stir and leave overnight). These 'hardening' salts are just too insoluble - unless you add them to the mash, where the acidity helps them to dissolve.
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Graham
Yes one of the flaws of Dave Line, and I think he picked it up from Ken Shales, is this fondness for chucking calcium carbonate into water. If anyone wants to use calcium carbonate for any reason, they must chuck it into the mash, cos that's the only place that it'll do anything.Jim wrote:To be honest, I'm coming round to the opinion that the best water-treatment strategy for the home brewer (other than chlorine removal) is to brew beers that work well with the water they have.
I tend to make light beers, as that's the best way to stop my mash getting too acidic.
I spent years adding gypsum and calcium carbonate as recommended by DL and others, but I honestly think it was a waste of time - most of it ended up settling out at the bottom of the 'treatment' vessel the next day (that was when my routine was to add the gypsum or whatever, stir and leave overnight). These 'hardening' salts are just too insoluble - unless you add them to the mash, where the acidity helps them to dissolve.
Most of Dave Line's whoopsies, and this is not meant to depreciate the value of his work in any way, stem from a lack of understanding of basic schoolboy chemistry. I'm no chemist, but I understand the chemistry behind water treatment well enough to be able talk about it and learn about it. Dave Line clearly didn't. A shame.
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Wobbler
My water source produces pretty decent beer and I've never bothered to treat it. But in the pursuit of excellence, I've just had my water analysed and advise was given on what to treat it with and how much to use.
It was a friend of mine who has very similar water parameters to me who talked me into giving it a go.
I've just made two identical bitters, one with water treatment and one without. So time will tell. I'll vote when I've taste tested them together.
It was a friend of mine who has very similar water parameters to me who talked me into giving it a go.
I've just made two identical bitters, one with water treatment and one without. So time will tell. I'll vote when I've taste tested them together.