Some newbie kegging questions

[Matt in Birdham]

I now have all the bits for kegging, and hooked it all up today for the first time.

The first issue is that my regulator shows very low (just above the red marker) on the cylinder side. Perhaps about 100psi, but hard to say as the scale is so small on that dial. Cylinder is newly delivered from gas uk. Is this normal for a co2 cylinder or do I either have a dodgy reg (newly purchased from maltmiller) or was the cylinder delivered empty? Seems plenty in there when I pressure tested my kegs, not sure how I'd be able to tell (and also seems rather unlikely).

Another question concerns beer lines. Of course, I was super impatient and followed directions for a 10 minute force carb (30psi, rock cylinder for 2 minutes). I now have the keg sitting on 12psi for serving. Having drawn a small glass, it is not really carbonated at all - not surprising, I guess. But my question is - I have a picnic tap with 2m of 3/16 OD line (very thin, in other words). Online calcs suggest that I would only need 2 feet of this line to serve at 12psi, so my question is does the longer line actually take the co2 out of the beer (i.e. make it flat), or does it just affect pour speed (which is fine, actually).

[Matt in Birdham]

One more noob question - I assume that all of the plastic threaded fittings should be done up "finger tight" only? That's what I have done, no obvious sounds of leakage (or bubbles with a starsan spray).

[sonicated]

The regulator always displays low on the cylinder side; it's normal. I phoned the supplier up when I first got mine to ask about it and they confirmed it was normal. If anyone knows why I would be interested to know!

I'm struggling myself with flat beer so someone else can take that question

[Matt in Birdham]

The regulator always displays low on the cylinder side; it's normal. I phoned the supplier up when I first got mine to ask about it and they confirmed it was normal. If anyone knows why I would be interested to know!

I'm struggling myself with flat beer so someone else can take that question

Thanks - I won't panic then The cylinder seems heavy enough (3.5kg / 5 litres) and is certainly producing plenty of gas on demand.
I just sat with my keg for 15 minutes, rocking it back and forth gently on 12pis - could hear the gas going in as I rocked it, and samples pulled along the way are showing nice carbonation already (on top of the 30 psi & shake for 2 mins earlier today). It's tasting pretty good already (beer was already nearly a month old in the fermentor). Already thinking I should have done this a while ago - can't see much bottling in my future

[NorthEastBrewer]

I don't think I have ever got it right yet with balancing my keg. I've always had massive foaming issues due to poor temperature control and using an obscenely short 3/8 beer line.

I've just switched to 3/16 beer line and got my keg temperature under control. Just as I was about to test all this, my pressure release valve failed as I was carbing up slowly and my co2 emptied over night... so i'm waiting on a new valve to arrive now and just got my tank refilled. I might try your technique of 30psi @ 2 mins and then 12 psi over 15 mins when I get the keg sealed again. I'm hoping that using 3/16 beer line will help. I've got 4m of the stuff and am going to slowly cut it down until I get the correct dispense.

Let me know how your carbing goes after it absorbs into solution overnight mate.
Barny

[Matt in Birdham]

Barny I don't think I would call it a "technique" - I have literally had a keg system set up for about 8 hours, so I was just messing around to see if I could get something drinkable today (impatient, I know - but lots of talk online said it was possible..).
The 30psi didn't seem to do a huge amount but just setting it to serving pressure (12 psi for me) and rocking seemed to do the job - you could hear the gas go in and then stabilise, and rocking again would cause more gas to go in. Eventually it stopped going in even when I was rocking, so I figured it was done. I just pulled a pint off and it tastes pretty good - definitely carbed OK, and the beer had had a decent rest beforehand. No doubt it will get a bit better over time, if I can leave it alone long enough..

Here's a pic - it's an all Mosaic APA I brewed before Christmas. You can't really see, but there are bubble coming up. A bit too cold - the fermentor was crashed to 2C and it will take a while to warm up.

[Matt in Birdham]

Also, I don't get any foaming with the 2m of 3/16 OD beer line, but it does take a long time to pour. I might try cutting it back a bit, foot by foot, until I hit a sweet spot. But I fear I will overshoot..

[DarrenSL]

The co2 in the tank is liquid so with a bit of gas in the headspace at around 800 psi depending on the temperature. When you release gas, more co2 gas will be released from the liquid to maintain the vapour pressure. So, the high pressire gauge (cylinder side) will always be at a fixed level and doesn't give any indication of the amount of co2 in the cylinder. The gauge will only go down when all the liquid has gone and you are about to run out . The way to know how much co2 you have is by weighing the cylinder.

I have 3 ft of 3/16 beer line which seems fine. I actually leave the keg at 30psi for 2-3 days and serve and drink at that pressure until I feel there is enough carbonation then dial the pressure back to c.15psi. Works fine for me. Just a larger head at 30psi but settles quickly enough.

Force carbing with the shaking method should be quicker at 30psi than 12psi.

[NorthEastBrewer]

Cheers for that info Darren.

Matt, that pint looks pretty decent for being carbed and straight out the keg! Wey your 8 hours of messing around with the setup pretty much beats my few attempts with kegging. I'm determined to get it right, so much so that i'm taking my bottles to the recycling bit by bit so i'm not tempted to use them again. It'll force me to get this kegging down better.

[Matt in Birdham]

Cheers for that info Darren.

Matt, that pint looks pretty decent for being carbed and straight out the keg! Wey your 8 hours of messing around with the setup pretty much beats my few attempts with kegging. I'm determined to get it right, so much so that i'm taking my bottles to the recycling bit by bit so i'm not tempted to use them again. It'll force me to get this kegging down better.

Yeah - I don't think you'll need any incentive to get kegging once you have it working - so much easier than bottling, although I am thinking of getting a bottle filling gun so that I can take the odd bottle out. I have just cut my 3/16 line down by about 2 feet (from 2m) so now it's about 4ft. Pour is a bit quicker but not foamy, and head is slightly better. Could probably go shorter - have ordered some extra line to play with, for when I inevitably screw it up

[NorthEastBrewer]

There is a great little stainless carbonation cap at the malt miller which can be used for counter pressure bottle filling. There is a YT link to how it is done on the page too: http://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/index.ph ... ductId=743

Cheaper than a beer gun, but doesn't look as fun.
Barny

[Fil]

for conditioning with pressure check out viewtopic.php?f=59&t=55498 for a reference.

depending on your keg temp leaving it @ 12psi May well result in some overconditioning that even your whole 4m of 3/16" would find hard to control fobbing??

i dont have temp control over my kegs and have resorted to storing them in an insulated ex coalshed which keeps worst of a winter chill off the kegs but does require a shelf chiller for the summer.. this results in a little over conditioning if the temps drop and a little loss of condition when it gets warmer which can be roughly managed by dropping the serving pressure when cold and raising it when warm.. Its definitely more hands on than employing a keg fridge and you have to accept a little variance in the beers condition if its on tap during a period of temperature change. But it is do-able my #1 tip would be to vent a keg before an evenings serving to normalise its pressure to what you had set the reg, (if the keg warmed up since last session the keg pressure could easily be higher than whats set due to condition loss from the beer..

[NorthEastBrewer]

Hi Fil,

Cheers for the info and links - i've had a good read through.

For the last few years of kegging, i've only kegged in the winter and bottled in the summer as I didn't have any room for a beer fridge. I always had massive problems with foaming, but there again, I guess I shouldn't be surprised as I was serving from a party tap with a 30cm 3/8 beer line after carbing up for 7 minutes at 30psi...! Purged Co2 from headspace to serve and served at 10psi.

However, I have a beer fridge now and it is dialed into 5C. Looking at the carbonation tables, 12psi over 3 days or so should carbonate to 2.43 vols Co2 - hopefully this will be ok.

I think I lost my confidence last week a bit when I had an apparent leak from the keg PRV. I'm pretty sure that the Co2 tank was on almost empty anyway but opening the fridge and seeing both high pressure and low pressure gauge dials on zero, I couldn't tell whether the Co2 had simply run out of the PRV had emptied it. The PRV was pretty old. I've replaced the PRV, refilled my Co2 tank and it seems to be holding pressure now.

If I connect for 3 days at 12psi [@5C] and there was still a small Co2 leak, I guess it would take quite a while for the Co2 bottle to empty as the leak is inaudible and can't be seen when applying soap to the outlets.

Lets say I did carb up at the above rate. After three days of 12psi, do you then disconnect the Co2 and only connect when you want to serve or are you supposed to leave the Co2 connected up at a serving pressure lower than the conditioning pressure?

Cheers,
Barny

[Fil]

You run a real risk of dropping a whole bottle of CO2 if you connect up with a known leak for any period of time. threaded connections can be wrapped with a liberal wrap of ptfe, there is a special gas sealing tape buy afaik its just a thicker version of the plumbers ptfe

JG connections and the pipe connecting to them can leak if under sideways pressure or if the connecting tube isnt pushed all the way home, when cutting beerline dont use scissors or a blade that squashes before cutting as the squashing will deform the square cut that a clean slice through should form. and any tube end that has been inserted/removed even only a few times from a JG fitting can become gnarled up and rough which can cause a leak.

Sort out the leak before you risk loosing a whole bottle overnight, i have lost a full bottle of co2 this way before..

Use conditioning tables as a guide, under ideal conditions (stable known temp ie in a fridge)
the table should provide a lookup for the ideal pressure to set and maintain the target condition after a week or so of setting up, so if 12psi @5c provides the condition you require connect up set and leave for a week or so and leave alone til the kegs empty.. if conditioning up and then disconnecting from gas you should be fine as long as the ambient temp remains at or above the temp at which you conditioned, However a sharp unexpected frost can result in the beer absorbing most if not all the co2 contained in the headspace of a full keg (.3l of co2 @ 12psi isnt that much ...) which can in the worst case scenario drop the internal pressure below that needed for an older keg to retain its lid seal, so keep an eye on kegs left conditioned especially after any sharp frosts..

you can pick up a shelf chiller for a bargain especially this time of year (local ebay /gumtree sales £20-£50) and while they are designed to run in bars and cater for rush hour continual pouring the instructions/guides suggest running one for 4+hours to build up the internal ice wall as a cold store, for personal use @home I find running for 20-45mins of an evening is ample time to chill the waterbath to circa 0C which is enough stored cold to chill my personal pints of an evening. you can also get instant chill machines but these seldom appear on the 2nd hand market, new they cost 100's

[NorthEastBrewer]

Cheers Fil, really helpful info mate.

I'm pretty sure that I have got the leak sorted, i'm don't know how I can be 100% sure though. I re-purged the keg of any oxygen and put a layer of Co2 down, then gave it a blast to seal the lid properly. I left the keg over night disconnected from Co2 and the next morning [this morning] when I burped the keg a little, there was still Co2 in the head space and as the keg is full I wouldn't have thought there would really be much Co2 in the head space... surely that's a good sign?

I have a new regulator, ptfe tape on all connections. The regulator has a vertical jg fitting [old regulator had a horizontal connection].

I've had the Co2 hooked up for 4 hours now [5C temp @ 12psi] and I have been keeping an eye on it. Every two hours it seems to drop to 11psi and when I turn it back to 12psi, it sits there quite happily. I've had to increase by 1psi twice over 4 hours. Is this because it is balancing out?

Barny