Hook and Norton - Haymaker

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kaymak

Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by kaymak » Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:18 am

Hey Guys,

Had a few bottles of this last night, really nice indeed, anyone ever tried to malke this or have a recipe they can share

coatesg

Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by coatesg » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:13 pm

From the Hook Norton website - "Maris Otter Pale Ale and Cara malts and a mouth watering mix of Fuggles, Goldings and Challenger hops". No idea on the ratios, but from memory I would start at 1050, use 4-5% caramalt, and about 35-40 IBU, with a nice amount of late additions.

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by seymour » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:18 pm

My notes are different, in case anyone's interested. No idea who is closer to the real deal, though.

Hook Norton Haymaker (ESB)
OG: 1052
ABV: 5.0%
IBU: 22
Grainbill: Mild Malt, Maris Otter, Carapils, Aciduated Malt, Flaked Maize, Invert Syrup
Bittering Hops: Challenger (60 min)
Aroma Hops: Fuggles & Goldings (15 min)
Dry Hops: Goldings
COLOUR: 13°SRM/25°EBC

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by far9410 » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:28 pm

Just sampling one at hook norton now, will have a go at this, thanks Seymour
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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by seymour » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:09 pm

far9410 wrote:Just sampling one at hook norton now, will have a go at this, thanks Seymour
Bump. Just curious if you had a go at this, and if so, how it turned out?

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by Wonkydonkey » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:15 pm

It's abit off topic, but my favourite is old hooky... Not had a pint in ages but it was one of the best at the time, at the time it was served in one of the locals I used to vist...cheers to hook norton beers
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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by Rookie » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:07 pm

coatesg wrote: I would start at 1050, use 4-5% caramalt, and about 35-40 IBU, with a nice amount of late additions.
=D>
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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by orlando » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:26 pm

seymour wrote:My notes are different, in case anyone's interested. No idea who is closer to the real deal, though.

Hook Norton Haymaker (ESB)
OG: 1052
ABV: 5.0%
IBU: 22
Grainbill: Mild Malt, Maris Otter, Carapils, Aciduated Malt, Flaked Maize, Invert Syrup
Bittering Hops: Challenger (60 min)
Aroma Hops: Fuggles & Goldings (15 min)
Dry Hops: Goldings
COLOUR: 13°SRM/25°EBC
Where's this from Seymour? I would be astonished if they used acidulated malt, most established UK brewers are much more likely to have a water treatment regime that didn't involve that. Acis is cheap compared to malt.
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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by themadhippy » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:50 pm

Pity they wont brew anymore banbury 400,that was a crackin pint
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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by seymour » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:30 am

orlando wrote:Where's this from Seymour? I would be astonished if they used acidulated malt, most established UK brewers are much more likely to have a water treatment regime that didn't involve that. Acis is cheap compared to malt.
The 4th and 5th editions of Roger Protz's Real Ale Almanac and Les Howarth's The Home Brewers Recipe Database, although Protz calls it "enzymic malt", another name for acidulated malt. According to his research, Hook and Norton use acid malt in most brews. I know for a fact many well-known, traditional UK brewers do/did: Adnams, Caledonian, King & Barnes, S.H. Ward & Co/Thorne, Vaux, etc. We use Weyermann acidulated malt a lot at The Civil Life Brewing Company too (not in our dark ales, since roasted malts provide enough acidification on their own, but definitely in our paler brews in order to easily dial-in ideal mash pH.)

I'm sure you're right that acid is cheaper than acidulated malt, in an absolute gram-for-gram sense, but it's harder than you'd think to deliver acid evenly to the mash. Many acids are denatured in hot water, their buffering ability can be unpredictable, they become too diluted in an oversized hot liquor tank, etc. Acidulated malt, on the other hand, I can easily sprinkle a little at a time while milling-in, then it gets scattered around the grist box, and then raked a lot inside the mash tun too, so it buffers the pH very evenly and predictably. Plus, acidulated malt still counts as a fermentable pale malt, so for instance, if I use 12 lbs Weyermann Acidulated Malt in a 20bbl batch of pale ale, I simply use 12 lbs less Thomas Fawcett Maris Otter base malt, the cost isn't very different. Also, we English and American brewers don't care about this, but German brewers have figured-out they can spray lactic acid on malt and still call themselves Reinheitsgebot compliant, even though they wouldn't be allowed to use lactic acid as an ingredient per se, so that's another benefit from their point of view...

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by Clibit » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:31 pm

seymour wrote: We use Weyermann acidulated malt a lot at The Civil Life Brewing Company too.
So you're a pro brewer now Seymour?

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by orlando » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:28 am

seymour wrote: it's harder than you'd think to deliver acid evenly to the mash. Many acids are denatured in hot water, their buffering ability can be unpredictable, they become too diluted in an oversized hot liquor tank,
I was so astonished by the claim Hook Norton (not Hook and Norton, it's named after its location in the village/civil parish of the same name) I emailed them to ask if they use acidulated malt. They said they don't use them in their current range of beers. Looks like that information is no longer the case and I suspect most of the rest, I've had a tour of Adnam's and there was no mention or evidence of acidulated malt being used. The quote above has also had me scratching my head as I've not seen or heard that about mineral acid either, have you got any references for that, I use mineral acid so intrigued by these deficiencies? Finally, what do you mean by oversized HLT?
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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by seymour » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:21 pm

Clibit wrote:So you're a pro brewer now Seymour?
Yes sir, and loving every minute of it! And, as you can imagine, is the main reason I have so much less time on the forums.
orlando wrote:I was so astonished by the claim Hook Norton (not Hook and Norton, it's named after its location in the village/civil parish of the same name) I emailed them to ask if they use acidulated malt. They said they don't use them in their current range of beers. Looks like that information is no longer the case and I suspect most of the rest, I've had a tour of Adnam's and there was no mention or evidence of acidulated malt being used.
Perhaps you're right. Not to be pedantic or argumentative, but I always see it called enzymic malt by UK brewers, as opposed to the acidulated term mainly referring to German malts, something I've found English brewers hate to admit using. I just wonder if you had asked, "Do you use enzymic malt" instead of "Do you use acidulated malt?" would the answer have been the same? Again, you're probably right, you're there and I'm not, I'm just surprised our intel is so different...

For instance, these charts at Adnams are within the last couple years. You'll see the sixth malt listed is "Dixons E.M.", an enzymic malt, not used in many recipes, but used in a few.
AdnamsBrewIngredients.jpg
adnams.JPG
orlando wrote:The quote above has also had me scratching my head as I've not seen or heard that about mineral acid either, have you got any references for that, I use mineral acid so intrigued by these deficiencies? Finally, what do you mean by oversized HLT?
I didn't mean to imply there's only one right way, or that acid malt is the best way. We've simply found it to be the best way to adjust mash pH in our practice, after trying liquid and mineral acids, so I figured some UK brewers had similar findings. This also aligns with commercial brewery grainbill data I had collected, but as you stated, that could be out of date.
orlando wrote:Finally, what do you mean by oversized HLT?
I meant that when applying liquid or mineral acid to treat mash pH, one must decide when/where to add it. Directly into the mash tun can be tough, since there's not always a great way to distribute it evenly, so (even with powered rakes and a 30 minute vorlauf) it impacts sections of the tun more than others and fails to buffer as predictably as we'd like. Or you can add it to the hot liquor tank, but in our case, we brew 20bbl batches of beer. Our hot liquor tank is 40bbl because we also call on it for heat sterilization and cleaning duties, sprayball to preheat tanks, etc, so if we treated the whole tank with acid, we'd waste a lot of chemistry that never made it into the mash. Plus, when we grain in, and when we sparge, we blend treated hot liquor with cold city water. Since that city water changes dramatically in temperature from day to day, we use a different amount of it every time, which makes it impossible to know exactly how much chemistry to add to the hot liquor tank. And, as I stated earlier, some of the acids we've used denature in very hot water. Anyway, for those reasons, we've found simply subbing some pale malt with pale acidulated malt is easy, cheap, and predictable enough for us. As always, brewing is an art and a science, and every brewer establishes their own best practices. I'm glad to hear mineral acid works well for you. I'd love to hear how/when you apply it, I obviously have more to learn.

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by Clibit » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:26 pm

seymour wrote:
Clibit wrote:So you're a pro brewer now Seymour?
Yes sir, and loving every minute of it! And, as you can imagine, is the main reason I have so much less time on the forums.
Great stuff, enjoy.

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Re: Hook and Norton - Haymaker

Post by orlando » Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:50 am

seymour wrote:
Clibit wrote:So you're a pro brewer now Seymour?
Yes sir, and loving every minute of it! And, as you can imagine, is the main reason I have so much less time on the forums.
orlando wrote:I was so astonished by the claim Hook Norton (not Hook and Norton, it's named after its location in the village/civil parish of the same name) I emailed them to ask if they use acidulated malt. They said they don't use them in their current range of beers. Looks like that information is no longer the case and I suspect most of the rest, I've had a tour of Adnam's and there was no mention or evidence of acidulated malt being used.
Perhaps you're right. Not to be pedantic or argumentative, but I always see it called enzymic malt by UK brewers, as opposed to the acidulated term mainly referring to German malts, something I've found English brewers hate to admit using. I just wonder if you had asked, "Do you use enzymic malt" instead of "Do you use acidulated malt?" would the answer have been the same? Again, you're probably right, you're there and I'm not, I'm just surprised our intel is so different...

For instance, these charts at Adnams are within the last couple years. You'll see the sixth malt listed is "Dixons E.M.", an enzymic malt, not used in many recipes, but used in a few.
AdnamsBrewIngredients.jpg
adnams.JPG
orlando wrote:The quote above has also had me scratching my head as I've not seen or heard that about mineral acid either, have you got any references for that, I use mineral acid so intrigued by these deficiencies? Finally, what do you mean by oversized HLT?
I didn't mean to imply there's only one right way, or that acid malt is the best way. We've simply found it to be the best way to adjust mash pH in our practice, after trying liquid and mineral acids, so I figured some UK brewers had similar findings. This also aligns with commercial brewery grainbill data I had collected, but as you stated, that could be out of date.
orlando wrote:Finally, what do you mean by oversized HLT?
I meant that when applying liquid or mineral acid to treat mash pH, one must decide when/where to add it. Directly into the mash tun can be tough, since there's not always a great way to distribute it evenly, so (even with powered rakes and a 30 minute vorlauf) it impacts sections of the tun more than others and fails to buffer as predictably as we'd like. Or you can add it to the hot liquor tank, but in our case, we brew 20bbl batches of beer. Our hot liquor tank is 40bbl because we also call on it for heat sterilization and cleaning duties, sprayball to preheat tanks, etc, so if we treated the whole tank with acid, we'd waste a lot of chemistry that never made it into the mash. Plus, when we grain in, and when we sparge, we blend treated hot liquor with cold city water. Since that city water changes dramatically in temperature from day to day, we use a different amount of it every time, which makes it impossible to know exactly how much chemistry to add to the hot liquor tank. And, as I stated earlier, some of the acids we've used denature in very hot water. Anyway, for those reasons, we've found simply subbing some pale malt with pale acidulated malt is easy, cheap, and predictable enough for us. As always, brewing is an art and a science, and every brewer establishes their own best practices. I'm glad to hear mineral acid works well for you. I'd love to hear how/when you apply it, I obviously have more to learn.
You're quite right about Enzymic malt being slightly different to acidulated, it appears it was used as a possible result of a small panic over 2 row malt not being as diastatic as 6 row. The Dixons malt you refer to I have found a reference to but I believe they no longer trade. I have asked Hook Norton to clarify the comment and will try to track down whether Enzymic malt is still available. Intriguing stuff. If it is no longer used I suspect it is because UK brewers are not worried about German beer purity laws and that other treatment methods are relatively simple to achieve the profile looked for.

I now understand your point about the HLT and how you have it purposed. Understanding your comments in the light of a commercial operation makes more sense. For my own part at the HB level and a 25-50l brew length, using mineral acid is a lot simpler. In short, for Pale beers the mash water and sparge water are both treated the same, alkalinity reduced to circa 20-30, using principally sulphuric acid. Dark beers I treat the mash and sparge liquour separately depending on style as Stouts with highly roasted grains will naturally acidify, so anywhere from 50-150 with sparge again reduced to 20-30. I use Hydrochloric acid for this as I want to reverse my "flavour" Ions to favour chloride rather than the sulphate bias I am looking for in my Pales. I am unaware of acid "denaturing" you suggest so that is still a comment I am perplexed by.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: No Stout About It (Porter)
Conditioning: 4 Hops To Heaven
Drinking: From Russia With Love (RIS), Peaches, Twist & Stout, I Am A Patriot Too, Reasons To Be Beerful (Part Three)

Up Next: With A Bitter Luck, Song For Keith
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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