When to scrap a stinking starter?

[donchiquon]

This morning I boiled up some starter wort for a brew next week. I decanted and poured in the yeast, WLP002 harvested at the start of June. Then I took a sniff from the jar - it stank of vinegar

Had to bin the starter and repeat the process with an older (May) jar of 002, but from a younger generation. This smelt slightly winey but nothing compared to the vinegar stinker.

I had a brew nearly a year ago that ended up tasting vinegary. Exactly the same as the starter smell today.

It's got me thinking about what criteria to apply before deciding to bin a starter. Some of them can smell a but funky but at what point do you decide that they are not fit to pitch?

[TheSumOfAllBeers]

When you have any hint whatsoever that they are screwed or infected

[IPA]

Next time you want to save yeast try my method outlined on this post.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78251#p812576
I recently revived a four year old sample using this method.

[Troutman47]

I capture the yeast the same way as described in the link from IPA’s post with a couple of differences.
If I’ve pitched a 1 litre starter I get 2 jam jars and fill them using a SS ladle. Loose lid for 24hrs then condense into one jar and seal the lid but I take the yeast at 48hrs not 36!
What I found was, at 36hrs I was getting the less attenuative yeast meaning when I fermented with it it finished at 1.014/16 not 1.008/10.
My current brew is using for the third time WLP023 and once again it came out the air lock!

I’ve a video on YouTube showing how I do this https://youtu.be/YHI1Ad0LLPs

[donchiquon]

Next time you want to save yeast try my method outlined on this post.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78251#p812576
I recently revived a four year old sample using this method.

Thanks @IPA - I think I'll have to try something different as the second yeast sample I tried to revive has also failed. I ended up with 300ml of greyish wort, no krausen or bubbles! Down the sink it's gone and I'm onto a sample of WY1469 for my third starter attempt!

It's strange because I've apart from that one winey brew from last year I've not had any starter issues. I'm careful to boil jars before using and then decant in 300ml of an overbuilt starter. I'm wondering where the "infection" gap in my process is.

I'll definitely try your method, especially like the beer you get to drink before pitching the starter! Do you think it would be okay to fill the bottle/jar from the racking port of a conical or is this too low for a top fermenting yeast?

[IPA]

Never tried it myself but give it a go. Nothing ventured nothing gained. If I were you I would try both and see if there is any difference and please let me know the result by a pm. My reasoning is to collect a sample of wort full of yeast and then let it ferment out normally. You will always know if the yeast is healthy by tasting the "beer" in the bottle. By the way her is another tip. I always fill a 500 ml plastic bottle first from the fv when bottling or kegging. Then by a simple squeeze test you will know how carbonation is progressing.

[f00b4r]

I capture the yeast the same way as described in the link from IPA’s post with a couple of differences.
If I’ve pitched a 1 litre starter I get 2 jam jars and fill them using a SS ladle. Loose lid for 24hrs then condense into one jar and seal the lid but I take the yeast at 48hrs not 36!
What I found was, at 36hrs I was getting the less attenuative yeast meaning when I fermented with it it finished at 1.014/16 not 1.008/10.
My current brew is using for the third time WLP023 and once again it came out the air lock!

I’ve a video on YouTube showing how I do this https://youtu.be/YHI1Ad0LLPs

Is that 48 hours from pitching or start of visible fermentation.

EDIT: just seen you mention is the latter in the video.

[Bad 'Ed]

I've found WLP002 to give off very vinegary smells when making a starter (direct from the vial) so maybe it's an aspect of the yeast itself? The resulting beers have never tasted vinegary.

[donchiquon]

I've found WLP002 to give off very vinegary smells when making a starter (direct from the vial) so maybe it's an aspect of the yeast itself? The resulting beers have never tasted vinegary.

I hope so! I've just tasted the starter for today's brew (2.5L of WY1469) and it tastes a little like a weissbier, not unpleasant but a bit lemony.

Hopefully that would be considered within the bounds of normal starter flavours? And not the sign of a problem?

I've only had one duff ferment in the last 2 years but these recent sour starters have got me paranoid

[donchiquon]

After a couple more hours of paranoid sniffing and tasting the starter tastes a little tart, with a hint of vinegar, and lemony.

These flavours and smells are pretty faint and the main one is reassuring beery/yeasty but I would consider them faults in a finished beer.

What do ye all reckon....should I pitch or use my dry yeast back up?

[orlando]

Tart is never good, vinegar, no matter how faint is not good either, these are not falts that condition out. Healthy English Ale yeast have never smelled like that, go with the dried in my view. Probably not what you want to hear but the glugging noise of 5 gallons down the drain is a lot worse.

[donchiquon]

Tart is never good, vinegar, no matter how faint is not good either, these are not falts that condition out. Healthy English Ale yeast have never smelled like that, go with the dried in my view. Probably not what you want to hear but the glugging noise of 5 gallons down the drain is a lot worse.

Thanks Orlando. I guess I knew that was coming! I pitched the dry and have put 1L of wort into the starter to see how it turns out. It will be a huge overpitch, but should at least tell me whether I was justified in ditching or just paranoid!

I usually pitch my 1+ mth old stored yeast sample straight into 2-3L of wort to create a starter, and I'm wondering whether missing the step in-between has given the nasties a chance to get in.

[orlando]

Good idea. I think it is best to not miss a step.

[donchiquon]

Next time you want to save yeast try my method outlined on this post.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78251#p812576
I recently revived a four year old sample using this method.

Late last year I decided to test the scavaging method side by side with the overbuild method, as I've continued to get winey/tart smelling jars of stored yeast using the overbuild method.

A week ago I made up two WLP002 starters, one using a jar of October 2017 overbuilt yeast from a fresh pack of 002, the other using a 500ml sample that I had drawn off (as per IPA's method) from the bitter than I had used the main body of the overbuilt starter to brew (ie it was also taken in October 2017).

I therefore ended up with a 300ml jar of (eventually compacted) yeast with starter wort sitting on it, and a 500ml bottle with compacted yeast and beer on top of it (a 5.5% ESB).

I boiled up 2.5L of DME and drained off the starter wort from the overbuilt starter jar. I could already smell the cidery smell that seems to plague these overbuilt starters (despite careful boiling and sanitising of all the equipment). I added 300ml of wort and set it on a stir plate.

At the same time I poured off the beer from the "high krausen" yeast sample, and as recommended by IPA I drank it. No off flavours. All good. I gave the yeast at the bottom a shake and sniff - just a gentle bready yeasty smell, no cider. I added 100ml of wort and shook every few hours.

36 hours later I sniffed and tested both starters. The overbuild one smelled and tasted gently cidery and tart, the high krausen starter gently bready and yeasty.

At this point I cooled the overbuild starter, and added the high krausen starter to 2L of wort on a stir plate. I cooled this after 48 hours.

I've just retasted both starters. The overbuild is now quite strongly cidery and tart, the high krausen one bready and yeasty - actually quite a pleasant drink with not a whiff of an off flavour.

I've got a similar double yeast store saved for WLP001 which I'm intending to rerun the same test with, but I think I've already decided which method to carry on with!

Thanks IPA!

[donchiquon]

I've found WLP002 to give off very vinegary smells when making a starter (direct from the vial) so maybe it's an aspect of the yeast itself? The resulting beers have never tasted vinegary.

Ditto, and I've only had one batch which ended up spoiled with phenolic off-flavours.

I'd be interested to see if you noticed the same smells when using IPA's method as the two starters I made up are as different as night and day (see previous post)