Weird Beersmith 3 water behaviour

[HairyJamie]

Hi All,

I'm playing with BS3 and the new water tab. The values look off to me though.

For example, if i add 5g of calcium chloride, it says that this will add 102.8 ppm of calcium and 182 ppm of chlorides in 33.38l of RO water? Surely this is too high?

My own calculations give much lower values, what calcium and chloride addition would people expect from 5g in 33.38 litres of water?

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[Eric]

There are several varieties of calcium chloride but I assume mine is is equivalent to calcium chloride dihydrate.

5g of calcium chloride dihydrate will consist of 1.363g of calcium and 2.412g of chloride, the rest being water.

So if my maths are correct 5g in 33.38 litres of water will provide roughly 41ppm calcium and 72ppm chloride.

If you can do the sums, why do you complicate matters using other peoples software to learn their bad habits?

[HairyJamie]

Thanks Eric,

Those figures are similar to my own.

I use beersmith for recipe formulation and want to also include my water salts so I have a permanent record in my brew log.

It's served me well for years so that's why I'm curious it would be so off.

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[LeeH]

It’s worth asking Brad on the BS from. He’s quite active on the BS3 section at the moment.


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[Kingfisher4]

If you can do the sums, why do you complicate matters using other peoples software to learn their bad habits?

Eric,
Would you mind pointing us to a relatively simple water treatment thread on the forum for
those of us who might prefer to do our own calculations, with the basic but essential knowledge?

I know there are the basic water treatment instructions accessible from the homepage,in several separate pages, but could not find the next step in simple terms.

[Sadfield]

It’s worth asking Brad on the BS from. He’s quite active on the BS3 section at the moment.


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Second this. I emailed him about adding CRS as an Ingredient that influenced the Water/Mash section of BS3, as so many British brewers used it. I received a reply saying he will do some research on it.

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[Jim]

If you can do the sums, why do you complicate matters using other peoples software to learn their bad habits?

Eric,
Would you mind pointing us to a relatively simple water treatment thread on the forum for
those of us who might prefer to do our own calculations, with the basic but essential knowledge?

I know there are the basic water treatment instructions accessible from the homepage,in several separate pages, but could not find the next step in simple terms.

That might be something worth adding to the water treatment pages if some knowledgeable and willing person could do some sort of write up.....

[Eric]

If you can do the sums, why do you complicate matters using other peoples software to learn their bad habits?

Eric,
Would you mind pointing us to a relatively simple water treatment thread on the forum for
those of us who might prefer to do our own calculations, with the basic but essential knowledge?

I know there are the basic water treatment instructions accessible from the homepage,in several separate pages, but could not find the next step in simple terms.

That might be something worth adding to the water treatment pages if some knowledgeable and willing person could do some sort of write up.....

The following in no way reflects on this particular posting. I wouldn't have answered in the first place had that been so.

The problem is Jim that it won't help those who won't help themselves. As you know I've answered such questions for some years now showing my calculations in detail. I would have done in this case had I more time and currently I'm about to go to the airport to collect you-know-who and am pressed for time again. I do the calculations myself without software because it is simple and with lots of poor sofware out there it is vastly easier that checking them for errors.

The maths is no more than junior school stuff unless you want to follow some of the latest thinking by American homebrewers for American style beers. The Chemisty is a bit more than early secondary school stuff, but it's no good getting it wrong as you could in school and still get enough marks for a pass.

As everone's water is at the very least slightly different, there is no common starting point. It is essential to have a grasp of one's own water to take a meaningful first step else you can just go round in circles. Few seem willing to have their water analysed to determine the quantity of major ions present and further, look to understand what the analysis means how adding salts and acids change its mineral content.

Off to the airport.

[Jim]

Eric,
Would you mind pointing us to a relatively simple water treatment thread on the forum for
those of us who might prefer to do our own calculations, with the basic but essential knowledge?

I know there are the basic water treatment instructions accessible from the homepage,in several separate pages, but could not find the next step in simple terms.

That might be something worth adding to the water treatment pages if some knowledgeable and willing person could do some sort of write up.....

The following in no way reflects on this particular posting. I wouldn't have answered in the first place had that been so.

The problem is Jim that it won't help those who won't help themselves. As you know I've answered such questions for some years now showing my calculations in detail. I would have done in this case had I more time and currently I'm about to go to the airport to collect you-know-who and am pressed for time again. I do the calculations myself without software because it is simple and with lots of poor sofware out there it is vastly easier that checking them for errors.

The maths is no more than junior school stuff unless you want to follow some of the latest thinking by American homebrewers for American style beers. The Chemisty is a bit more than early secondary school stuff, but it's no good getting it wrong as you could in school and still get enough marks for a pass.

As everone's water is at the very least slightly different, there is no common starting point. It is essential to have a grasp of one's own water to take a meaningful first step else you can just go round in circles. Few seem willing to have their water analysed to determine the quantity of major ions present and further, look to understand what the analysis means how adding salts and acids change its mineral content.

Off to the airport.

I understand where you're coming from Eric.

I know that you've explained some basic stuff to me in the past, which I understood at the time (despite usually being somewhat the worse for wear), so I reckon if I can get it most people that know a bit of secondary school chemistry can. As you say though, the work has to be put in up front, or it's all a waste of time (which must surely apply to using a ready-build water calculator as well).

[Sadfield]

@hairyjamie You can set up your own water profiles in BS2 and 3, including the necessary additions of salts to achieve that profile. These will be based on your own calculations, all you need to do then is to add the desired quantity of the relevant water profile to the recipe and it will automatically add the salts to the recipe (it inserts the total liquor volume as default into the corresponding box). Not perfect, but does the job of automating and recording the process, if you have a relatively consistent water supply.

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[Robwalkeragain]

When's the mobile version out? Website says late July but I wannitttt nooowww

[Kingfisher4]

That might be something worth adding to the water treatment pages if some knowledgeable and willing person could do some sort of write up.....

The following in no way reflects on this particular posting. I wouldn't have answered in the first place had that been so.

The problem is Jim that it won't help those who won't help themselves. As you know I've answered such questions for some years now showing my calculations in detail. I would have done in this case had I more time and currently I'm about to go to the airport to collect you-know-who and am pressed for time again. I do the calculations myself without software because it is simple and with lots of poor sofware out there it is vastly easier that checking them for errors.

The maths is no more than junior school stuff unless you want to follow some of the latest thinking by American homebrewers for American style beers. The Chemisty is a bit more than early secondary school stuff, but it's no good getting it wrong as you could in school and still get enough marks for a pass.

As everone's water is at the very least slightly different, there is no common starting point. It is essential to have a grasp of one's own water to take a meaningful first step else you can just go round in circles. Few seem willing to have their water analysed to determine the quantity of major ions present and further, look to understand what the analysis means how adding salts and acids change its mineral content.

Off to the airport.

I understand where you're coming from Eric.

I know that you've explained some basic stuff to me in the past, which I understood at the time (despite usually being somewhat the worse for wear), so I reckon if I can get it most people that know a bit of secondary school chemistry can. As you say though, the work has to be put in up front, or it's all a waste of time (which must surely apply to using a ready-build water calculator as well).

This may sound Luddite, but I have experienced too many crashes and lost data or incompatibility problems when manufactureres "upgrade" or stop supporting software, both at home and work! I have really enjoyed formulating paper versions to track my own brews so far and find it far easier to update and compare. I accept Beersmith etc may help, perhaps, but the basic recipe formulation in the GF app and paper works for me now.

I am numerate and could understand that level of chemistry with some refreshment of long forgotten principles so an addition to the water treatment pages would be fantastic.

I currently juggle calcium chloride and gypsum additions from my interpretation of principles shared by a microbrewery brewer at a local course, applied to the up-to-date water ion profile from our water supplier. The pH pre mash has so far hit 5.2 - 5.4 (papers not meter) but I don't understand as much as I would like to take the next step and have already been put off delving too deeply into the copy of "Water" by Palmer & Kaminski - not for beginners and American slant.

Next step I think is deeper understanding, especially pH balance, Salifert testing kit and MM AMS/CRS may be a part of that??

[HairyJamie]

I'm lucky in that my own water has basically nothing in it, which is why I'm so interested in calcium additions from salts. My last few beers have had a sourness to the bitterness if that makes sense, so when BS3 gave far higher predicted numbers it caused me to pause and think that I'd maybe been adding too much and getting some mineral off flavours. Looks like my calcs have been fine though, so maybe time to change yeast and see if that makes a difference.

Kingfisher4 - Get a salifert test for a quick indication of alkalinity. It's dead easy.

I also keep paper records but I like having an electronic record too.

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[Kingfisher4]

Thanks, awaiting stock arrival at our local aquatic centre! A kit already reserved.

[Eric]

Thanks Eric,

Those figures are similar to my own.

I use beersmith for recipe formulation and want to also include my water salts so I have a permanent record in my brew log.

It's served me well for years so that's why I'm curious it would be so off.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

After reading the above posting, one far more knowledgeable than I, passed his observance of a relationship between Beersmith's findings and our own. So armed with that, perhaps now is time to do this calculation in greater detail for any wishing to do their own and go on to expose the probable cause of the error in BS.

Starting point is the Periodic Table to allow determination of the molecular weight of a salt and the proportion by weight of each ion. Calcium chloride is most usually supplied to UK homebrewers in dihydrate form, CaCl2.2H2O, often called calcium chloride flake. A molecule of such contains one atom of calcium, 2 of chlorine, 4 hydrogen and 2 of oxygen and from the periodic table its molecular weight can be calculated.
40.078 + (2 x 35.45) + (4 x 1.008) + (2 x 15.999)
= 40.078 + 70.9 + 4.032 + 31.998 = 147.008

So knowing the molecular weight of the salt and individual components, the amounts of each can be determined for any weight of that salt.
5g divided 147.008 then multiplied by 40.078 gives the weight of calcium ions present which is 1.363g.
5g divided 147.008 then multiplied by 70.9 gives the weight of chloride ions present which is 2.4114g.
The rest, 1.226g, of the 5g would be water.
Then dividing those calculated weights by the given volume of 33.38 litres of liquor gives a calcium content of 40.83mg/L and for chloride of 72.24mg/L, not as advised from BS3.

It is common to express some mineral contents as calcium carbonate, particularly alkalinity and hardness. It is not unknown to express calcium itself in terms of an amount of calcium carbonate that contains the particular weight of calcium. Calcium carbonate is 2.5 times heavier than the calcium in it, so it appears this might be what BS3 calculates. However, I've never seen chloride expressed as calcium carbonate, but as I was advised, BS3's result is 2.5 times the correct amount.

The effect of adding gypsum can be calculated similarly to the above. It is usually supplied as calcium sulphate dihydrate, CaSO4.2H2O
Magnesium sulphate is ususally supplied as Epsom salts, MgSO4.7H2O

Whatever method used to calculate salt additions, the proportion of water present in salts can be different to the factor used for the calculation. It may be that the factors embedded or chosen for the computation may be inappropriate or that the salt used is not the usual one used in brewing or the salt itself might have lost or gained in water content or was different to its description. Calcium chloride, in particular, readily absorbs water and must be stored in a sealed container to have any hope of retaining its properties. In all cases it can be wise to examine how salts are stored.