Schwarzbier (Dark Lager)

[Frothy]

Intrigued by a pint of Budvar Black I'm emphatic to recreate this style of dark delicacy. There are a few recipes from DelBoys thread here Black Lager and I've got a couple of questionable dark lager recipes from Camra's Brew Classic Euro Beers. The only problem is the malts.

I've got lots of Lager Malt and on order is
1kg x Carafa I
1kg x Carafa II
1kg x Malanoidin Malt
Dark Munich is however nonexistent and appears in all of the recipes I have found. I understand that Carafa is a debittered chocolate type malt and the numbers indicate the darkness so I can adjust I & III together to make something like II.

Question is can I make do without the Dark Munich malt and how much Malanoidin should I add to recreate something like a decoction mash?

cheers
Frothy

BConnery's recipe
Schwarzbier 1 2005 / 4-C Schwarzbier (Black Beer)

19.2 L 65%ef 1.051
Color: 22.4 (17.0 - 30.0)
Alcohol: 5.05% (4.4% - 5.4%)
Bitterness: 31.42 (22.0 - 32.0)

3.4 kg JWM Export Pilsner
1.0 kg JWM Dark Munich
0.25 kg Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt
0.25 kg Weyermann Carafa Special I
24.0 g Perle (7.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
15.0 g Tettnanger Tettnang (4.7%) - added during boil, boiled 90.0 min
15.0 g Tettnanger Tettnang (4.7%) - added during boil, boiled 1.0 min
1 ea White Labs WLP800 Pilsner Lager

BigED's recipe
Schwarzbier (Black Beer)

38 liters 72%ef
5 kg. German 2-row Pils
3 kg. German Dark Munich
.30 kg. Weyermann Carafa II®
57 g. Hallertau Hersbruck (Pellets, 4.50 %AA) boiled 60 min.
28 g. Spalt Spalter (Pellets, 4.75 %AA) boiled 30 min.
14 g. Spalt Spalter (Pellets, 4.75 %AA) boiled 5 min.
Yeast : WYeast 2308 Munich Lager

My usual mash for this would be a decoction starting at 56C for 20 minutes, 66C for 60 minutes followed by 76C for 10 minutes but a single infusion @66C would also be fine.

I'm not sure if this one is even a Schwarzbier but more of a dark lager->
CAMRA:BCEB
Einbecker Maibock
German double bock beer
23L @1.067 36IBU
4.25kg Pilsener Malt
2.6kg Dark Munich Malt

90min - N.Brewer 30g
90min - Hallertau 30g

Double decoction mash & Lager as appropriate.

[Aleman]

I agree about the Dark Munich Still it can sort of be substituted by using light Munich and Melanoidin

Yes you can 'blend' the darker and lighter Carafa Specials to make the middle one. The Weyermann Website has the specs of all the malts so you should be able to determine how much of each to mix

Eg Malt 1 EBC 500, Malt 2 1000, Mix 50:50 and get EBC 750 (More or less).

Now for Dark Munich I would replace that with say 9:1 Light Munich:Melanoidin.

To go for a 'decoction' taste than up to 10% of the 'base' malt (ie the 'lager' malt) can be replaced with Melanoidin, I wouldn't go much above a total of 15% melanoidin though, but that is just my personal preference

[Barley Water]

What is the deal over there in the UK, why can you not get all the various malts and hops you need? Is there some sort of government program to keep the masses from enjoying good beer? Ya'll are closer to the original source of most of the malt and hops than I am. Here in Texas, I can go to our local homebrew shop (maybe 3-4 miles from the house) and get any British, American, German or Belgium base malt I want plus a really big selection of specialty malts. Also, I bet the shop carries at least 15-20 different types of pellet hops. We do have Baptists to contend with here but we have been able to wear them down over the years so they are now leaving us alone (I guess other sinners are higher on their list).

I agree with the previous post, try using a combination of the malts that you have. I have had very good luck doing decoction mashing although it is a pain in the butt and time consuming. Also, you can cheat a little and try boiling down the first runnings out of your mash tun and also doing extra long boils.

[delboy]

Im probably just showing my ignorance but i assumed dark munich would be just plain old caramunich which is about 80-100 E.B.C.
What actually is it??

Edit: just had a closer look at some of the recipes, it seems to be used in high quantities so it certainly isn't a crytal malt .
Im guessing its kilned just a bit higher normal munich.

[Aleman]

Good guess

[Frothy]

Myvern @ the Happy Brewer was telling me that dark munich a relatively light brown malt but the distributor has decided not to keep it anymore, he does however have rauchmalt etc. etc.

Cheers TJB I guess it's a matter of experience, I haven't got much of a clue until I get my hands on some of the malt. I ordered some light munich anyway and I'll try bodging it with some melanoidin as you say. I'm not that desperate as to start ordering it from the states or anything but it is a shame about the dark munich.

Barley Water, did the Baptists try and get homebrew banned?

Frothy

[Aleman]

It can be ordered from that place in Europe, I will probably be ordering some next year along with some Pilsner malt for next years lagers, so the order will be going in november december time.

I know it doesn't help you now, but I'llbe happy to pass it along to people who want it at the time

[Barley Water]

No, the Baptists did not go after homebrew directly. They generally try to make it as difficult to drink as possible and are indirectly responsible for some really wierd laws here. It is interesting however that I started brewing in part because it was such a pain to buy beer. The laws are much less restrictive now but 30 years ago when I started it was easier to make beer than to buy it in some areas.

The interesting thing about Baptists though is that two of them over at the house will never touch your beer but one will drink you dry.

[Aleman]

Sorry people, The link to the Weyermann website that I posted was incorrect, I have editied it now, and just for brevity you can also click here

[BigEd]

Im probably just showing my ignorance but i assumed dark munich would be just plain old caramunich which is about 80-100 E.B.C.
What actually is it??

Edit: just had a closer look at some of the recipes, it seems to be used in high quantities so it certainly isn't a crytal malt .
Im guessing its kilned just a bit higher normal munich.

That's what it is.

[Frothy]

TJB it just sounds like one more reason to head over to Oktoberfest, make a roadtrip and bring it all back. I take it you mean brouwland? http://www.brouwland.com/

Frothy

[Aleman]

Thats who I meant, but I'd forgotten what they were called (See the other thread on Aluminium )

[David Edge]

What is the deal over there in the UK, why can you not get all the various malts and hops you need? Is there some sort of government program to keep the masses from enjoying good beer?

[Smiley for please don't take offence, this is somewhat tongue in cheek]

No, it's just that traditional British brewers are more skilled and manage to produce a wide range of beers using a rather simpler range of malt and hops. Batemans are well-regarded and use three malts. I don't think Fullers use much more than three either. There is thus a smaller demand for flying ingredients in from the four corners of the world.

On top of that, the British climate is generally well-suited to ale production so many of us never get round to installing chilled fermenters, hence lower demand for ingredients associated with styles that need that refrigeration to make.

Many of us are quite handy/inventive and if a dark Munich malt is required would bung a pale Munich in the oven and roast it up a bit or substitute a 50EBC diastatic amber malt for a 50EBC Munich. No doubt there are detail differences, but I at a first stab one would match colour number and if substituting for a crystal/caramel malt substitute with another crystal/caramel one. That said, the renowned Durden Park chaps didn't even bother with that and used a very pale crystal to substitute for pale amber.

Because we have a good range of indigenous beer styles (don't base your judgement of British beers on the generally pasteurised imports you get in the US) there's less enthusiasm for making foreign styles. They often arrive here in less than ideal condition and don't inspire me to reproduce them. As you point out Europe is rather nearer and so if I want to drink De Koninck I can jump on a train and have a bolleke.

There's nothing wrong with brewing foreign styles and good examples can be very pleasant. However the hobby is rather smaller in the UK (anybody want to suggest there are more than 2000 full mash home brewers?) Thus a local home brew shop would struggle to turn over enough to keep it fresh.

So there is no need to invoke conspiracy theory to explain the different range of ingredients available in homebrew shops in the UK and the US. There are lots of less sinister reasons!

cheers!

[eddetchon]

To go back to the original question in this thread, I would just use light munich if that is what you can get. Here in NZ we have a similar issue with dark munich and i've only got hold of it because a bunch of us here did a bulk order earlier in the year from the one wholesaler who supplies the NZ microbreweries which allowed us to get whatever we wanted - admittedly noone was game enough to order a 50kg bag of carafa special II though. Anyhow:

Schwarzbier as I understand it can come in two main varieties. One is an extension of a munich dunkel, but with a significant roast malt component, and the other is a sort of black pils, which is more what the archetypal german schwarzbier, kostritzer is.

If you're trying to achieve the first, which is what you seem to be trying to do, I doubt that with a decent wallop of black malt of some type or other (in the absence of carafa special I use a good quality black patent and it works fine) it matters much what your base is. Hence - just use the light munich. For me, it is one of those beers for which you can use whatever you have around as the base - all munich, half munich half pils, and whatever munich you have available will do. i even used vienna malt one time.

if you're doing the other kind of schwarz, i'd be wanting to go for a mainly pils base and try and get yourself some sinamar.

for what it is worth, my last recipe for 20L and about OG 1048 was:
2kg Dark Munich
2kg Pils
200g caramunich
220g black patent
used wyeast 2206 and nz varieties of hallertauer hops. Was a beauty, but i'd not hesitate to use other base malts if that's all I had. Tho i would use carafa if we had it available......

[dartgod]

Hey Frothy......I didn't see this post at first or I would of responded sooner

Here is my recipe for Schwartzbier.....it's a cross between Jamil's and Weyermann's and I used the dark grains Carafa II and Chocolate right before I started my mash-out and sparge to reduce the astringency that might be extracted from these grains.....I also used San Francisco Lager Yeast because it's not as finicky as other lager yeast and WhiteLabs has it as one of the Most Preferred Yeast for style......I'm going to be drinking a keg next week on vacation and when I was kegging I took a sample and it was really good and smooth( the flavor profile I was looking for was right on).....probably would benefit from 3 or 4 weeks of lagering but 10 days is all it's going to get
The use of San Francisco Lager Yeast will help....I fermented at 59-60 degrees.....60 for the primary and 59 for the secondary.....I have it at 34 since I kegged



Midnight Lager
Brew Type: All Grain Date: 8/14/2007
Style: Schwarzbier (Black Beer) Brewer: Brian Kunkle
Batch Size: 5.25 gal Assistant Brewer:
Boil Volume: 8.18 gal Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 % Equipment: Brew Pot (12.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Actual Efficiency: 66.16 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 50.00 %
4.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 40.00 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 5.00 %
0.25 lb Carafa II (412.0 SRM) Grain 2.50 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.50 %
1.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.50 %] (60 min) Hops 19.9 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.50 %] (20 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.50 %] (0 min) Hops -
0 Pkgs San Francisco Lager (White Labs #WLP810) [Starter 1500 ml] Yeast-Lager

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.049 SG (1.046-1.052 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.046 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.015 SG (1.010-1.016 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Color: 21.9 SRM (17.0-45.0 SRM) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 23.9 IBU (22.0-32.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 7.0 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.34 % (4.40-5.40 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 4.17 %
Actual Calories: 205 cal/pint


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Mash Tun Weight: 9.00 lb
Mash Grain Weight: 10.00 lb Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 4.76 gal Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 12.50 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 7.00 qt of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F 10 min


Mash Notes
Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage Carbonation Type: Force
Volumes: 2.6 (2.2-2.7 vols)
Estimated Priming Weight:
Temperature at Bottling: 60.0 F
Primer Used: - Age for: 4.0 Weeks
Storage Temperature: 34.0 F