How improtant is water treatment?
-
SteveD
I treat my water on the basis of 'better to be safe than sorry' as regards chlorine removal, and as far as bicarbonate reduction goes I very much play it by ear and treat according to what the water is like on the brewday, as my supply can randomly swing from hard to soft overnight, and also how naturally acidic my grist composition is - how much roast malt, etc. So, there is no formula, eg 20ml CRS, 9g DLS, that I can just chuck in every time...I have to add in stages and check ph as I go. That is known as a right royal pain in the arse, but I get to hit ph 5.2 in the mash which is a good thing. DLS is added according to how much I want to crank up calcium, sulphate, and chloride levels if brewing pale ales, bitters, etc.
Nothing wrong with Phil's (Seveneer) beer at all! Good stuff.
Nothing wrong with Phil's (Seveneer) beer at all! Good stuff.
-
bandit
-
steve_flack
I used to use phosphoric acid. The sort of acid you use will determine the ions left in solution after neutralising the carbonate. If you use hydrochloric you'll end up with calcium chloride; with sulfuric you'll end up with calcium sulfate (gypsum). Neither is necessarily bad from a beer point of view and either would be fine in a bitter. For a lager perhaps perhaps you wouldn't want to increase the sulfate too much and the chloride would be better.bandit1200s wrote:Last night I was having a beer with a local beer consultant and he informed me that one particular brewery uses sulphuric acid to drop carbonate levels. Others use lactic acid and I have read on here that hydrochloric acid is used also.
Does it matter which one you use, what are the differences?
Calcium Phosphate seems pretty insoluble and generally drops out of the water altogether so won't affect flavour. However, this could reduce calcium levels too much and that would be bad as calcium is important. IIRC Flocculation is a process that requires (or at least works better) if there's calcium around.
For what it's worth, CRS is a mixture of hydrochloric and sulfuric.
-
David Edge
Sulphuric acid adds sulphate ions and hydrochloric acid adds chloride as well as knocking carbonates out. Lactic is used because people have it lying around for other reasons. I use phosphoric because I have it for yeast washing. John Alexander says phosphoric is a good choice because the it is compatible with the mash buffer system and hence harder to go too far.
It's an important economy in a big brewery to use sulphuric because it saves all that tedious mucking abound with gypsum.
Once you know what water you have available and what water composition you wish to brew with you can take the effect of your acid into account in your treatment calcs.
It's an important economy in a big brewery to use sulphuric because it saves all that tedious mucking abound with gypsum.
Once you know what water you have available and what water composition you wish to brew with you can take the effect of your acid into account in your treatment calcs.
-
guildofevil
As my water has a total hardness of 55 (mg CaCO3/l), I don't need to treat it for most of my beers, beyond the half campden tablet to take care of the chlorine.
If I want to do a stout, or other very dark beer, I add some baking soda to soak up the extra acid. For light coloured beers I use a bit of Gypsum to help the mash acidify.
If I want to do a stout, or other very dark beer, I add some baking soda to soak up the extra acid. For light coloured beers I use a bit of Gypsum to help the mash acidify.
-
Wobbler
After the experiment mentioned above, and several other beers made from treated water, I think I've had long enough to taste the differences in beer from untreated water compared to treated water.DRB wrote:Looking forward to the results.
The treated water produces far superior beer imho. The untreated water produces beer with much harsher tastes from the malt, whereas the beer from the treated water tastes much less like homebrew, and more like beer I'd always wanted to produce.
From an analysis of my water, alkalinity is a whopping 314 ppm, so it's no wonder the water treatment has helped. It's a bit early to be 100% sure, but I think the water treatment has also been an aid in producing a clearer, brighter looking beer.
I've been using AMS and DWB.
-
bandit
So if I have got this correct Phosphoric Acid produces Calcium Phoshate which precipitates out and reduces the overall calcium content of the water. So if I have a low calcium content to start with, using Phosphoric acid would not help my pale ales at they require higher levels of calcium. So if I use hydrochloric I'll end up with calcium chloride; with sulfuric I'll end up with calcium sulfate (gypsum).
Good, its starting to sink in now.
Now the next bit
If these acids increase chlorides and sulphates, by how much do they increase the values. If I have an initial choride level of 29 mg/l and add hdrochloric acid how do I determine the new chloride level. I ask this because if I then add DLS to the water I will be not be taking into consideration the increased chloride levels. Or is the increase so small as not to worry.
I have read that varying levels of chlorides and sulphates greatly effect the taste, mouthfeel, ummani of the finished beer. I know of one brewery that seriously tries to reduce sulphates for a cleaner taste.
When I have this figured out it will help immensly as I have such a variable water source from local rivers. My hardness and calcium vary so much that I am going to have to react to that days water profile to produce a constant beer profile with accuracy.
I have now gone away from the idea of adding pure water to my local water as this may reduce the alkalinity but it also reduces some of the other vital minerals.
After all these years I am finally adding acid again.
The results can only be enlightening
Good, its starting to sink in now.
Now the next bit
If these acids increase chlorides and sulphates, by how much do they increase the values. If I have an initial choride level of 29 mg/l and add hdrochloric acid how do I determine the new chloride level. I ask this because if I then add DLS to the water I will be not be taking into consideration the increased chloride levels. Or is the increase so small as not to worry.
I have read that varying levels of chlorides and sulphates greatly effect the taste, mouthfeel, ummani of the finished beer. I know of one brewery that seriously tries to reduce sulphates for a cleaner taste.
When I have this figured out it will help immensly as I have such a variable water source from local rivers. My hardness and calcium vary so much that I am going to have to react to that days water profile to produce a constant beer profile with accuracy.
I have now gone away from the idea of adding pure water to my local water as this may reduce the alkalinity but it also reduces some of the other vital minerals.
After all these years I am finally adding acid again.
The results can only be enlightening-
steve_flack
You would need to know the concentration of the acids in the CRS/AMS and the amount you're adding.bandit1200s wrote: If these acids increase chlorides and sulphates, by how much do they increase the values. If I have an initial choride level of 29 mg/l and add hdrochloric acid how do I determine the new chloride level. I ask this because if I then add DLS to the water I will be not be taking into consideration the increased chloride levels. Or is the increase so small as not to worry.
-
David Edge
-
REptile1
Hello All,
After reading through all these post on water treatment I'm intrigued, as yet I have never treated my water prior to brewing, either for kits or grains.
As you can probably see my regular grain brew is stout and this seems fine with untreated water (but guess I will never know if I don't treat it!!)
I think the taste and quality of the kits I make could be improved even though I tend to go for the more expensive ones
My wife keeps marine fish and treats all the water for the tank with a Reverse Osmosis unit which consists of two filters one charcoal and the r/o thingy on the top.
Question:- If I was to run my brewing water through this filter prior to brewing would it improve things and if so what would I have to add back to get better results
Oh and one last thing how much time do you have to allow after adding Camden tablets
After reading through all these post on water treatment I'm intrigued, as yet I have never treated my water prior to brewing, either for kits or grains.
As you can probably see my regular grain brew is stout and this seems fine with untreated water (but guess I will never know if I don't treat it!!)
I think the taste and quality of the kits I make could be improved even though I tend to go for the more expensive ones
My wife keeps marine fish and treats all the water for the tank with a Reverse Osmosis unit which consists of two filters one charcoal and the r/o thingy on the top.
Question:- If I was to run my brewing water through this filter prior to brewing would it improve things and if so what would I have to add back to get better results
Oh and one last thing how much time do you have to allow after adding Camden tablets -
SiHoltye
Hi (all that follows is anecdotal),
I AG brew and to do so treat my water to 1 crushed campden tab per 10 gallons, which reacts instantly i'm told to remove chlorine and chlorimines, just stir a wee bit and it's good. Other than this I use 5.2 stabilizer in my mash tun. Nowt else. For a kit i'd use the campden and rinse everything with 1pt just boiled water and 1 tsp sodium metabisulphate solution. That is to say fermentor really. What this does is neutralize any left over chlorine from cleaners. I used to have a prob with VWP cleaner residue tainting my beer with a TCP taste when first doing kits. The cleaner and the water were the two things this forum helped me narrow my TCP taste down to, and once this forum gave me the knowledge about campden for water and Sod metbisul for rinsing (PS just use this and drip dry, no need to rinse with tap, it's used in food anyhow, and quite safe with no beer effects at 1tsp per pt) the beer came out as it should. Oh and I recently cocked about with my fermenting temperature. Don't do this, most upsetting for yeast. Stick to the temp range on the packet! (see S04@1.052 or possibly don't). Hope some of this helps.
I AG brew and to do so treat my water to 1 crushed campden tab per 10 gallons, which reacts instantly i'm told to remove chlorine and chlorimines, just stir a wee bit and it's good. Other than this I use 5.2 stabilizer in my mash tun. Nowt else. For a kit i'd use the campden and rinse everything with 1pt just boiled water and 1 tsp sodium metabisulphate solution. That is to say fermentor really. What this does is neutralize any left over chlorine from cleaners. I used to have a prob with VWP cleaner residue tainting my beer with a TCP taste when first doing kits. The cleaner and the water were the two things this forum helped me narrow my TCP taste down to, and once this forum gave me the knowledge about campden for water and Sod metbisul for rinsing (PS just use this and drip dry, no need to rinse with tap, it's used in food anyhow, and quite safe with no beer effects at 1tsp per pt) the beer came out as it should. Oh and I recently cocked about with my fermenting temperature. Don't do this, most upsetting for yeast. Stick to the temp range on the packet! (see S04@1.052 or possibly don't). Hope some of this helps.
-
SiHoltye
-
Aleman
- It's definitely Lock In Time
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:56 am
- Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancashire, UK
Question:- If I was to run my brewing water through this filter prior to brewing would it improve things and if so what would I have to add back to get better results[/quote]
You only want to use RO water for really pale beers like Pilsners, and you would NEVER use pure RO, always mix it back with a proportion of your tap water, I believe Palmers book has a good nomograph on how to add salts back to RO to hit your desired pH, but have never tried it. I have incredibly soft water here with very low Calcium levels and do little to adjust salt levels to brew good beer.
Those of you who read UK Homebrew know my feelings on water treatment, which can be summed up by "Reduce the alkalinity to below 50ppm, and add Gypsum to accentuate bitterness and calcium chloride to accentuate malt profile". Of course if you have high alkalinity then you are going to brew good stouts, In my case I might improve things if I added a tsp of chalk to my grist, but as I get good results with things as they are the I am going to leave things alone. There are more important things to worry about when brewing beer that have a much more important effect on the outcome.
You only want to use RO water for really pale beers like Pilsners, and you would NEVER use pure RO, always mix it back with a proportion of your tap water, I believe Palmers book has a good nomograph on how to add salts back to RO to hit your desired pH, but have never tried it. I have incredibly soft water here with very low Calcium levels and do little to adjust salt levels to brew good beer.
Those of you who read UK Homebrew know my feelings on water treatment, which can be summed up by "Reduce the alkalinity to below 50ppm, and add Gypsum to accentuate bitterness and calcium chloride to accentuate malt profile". Of course if you have high alkalinity then you are going to brew good stouts, In my case I might improve things if I added a tsp of chalk to my grist, but as I get good results with things as they are the I am going to leave things alone. There are more important things to worry about when brewing beer that have a much more important effect on the outcome.
The reaction is more or less instantaneous, If I had to use them I would Add the tablet to the water as I was drawing it off, although crushing it and adding it to the liquor with a quick stir works.REptile1 wrote:Oh and one last thing how much time do you have to allow after adding Camden tablets
-
bandit
My last two beers were done with pure RO water and added salts. NEVER AGAIN. One was weak and miserable the other was pale and astringent. But out of everything bad comes something good. I have just mixed them together and do you know what......its not bad
I am on my second pint now and it will do for me. The thing is I will have to throw some away to get one full cornie of good stuff.
Hail the salt meister that can write a program for salt additions that really works. My excell spreadsheets will be looked at another day, not now, time for more beer.
I am on my second pint now and it will do for me. The thing is I will have to throw some away to get one full cornie of good stuff.
Hail the salt meister that can write a program for salt additions that really works. My excell spreadsheets will be looked at another day, not now, time for more beer.