Stunner again this time FWH

[mixbrewery]

Looking forward to the result P2.
I've marked Stunner for the next brew and would be interested on how the tweaking turns out.

[Wez]

It was a Stalk that got him into this situation in the first place

[prodigal2]

OK so I bagged(4.5L per 5L bag in a box) and bottled this up today. It dropped down to 1,010(yet again, it seems most do ) from a OG of 1,047.

The aroma is very quince like, which is also in the flavour with the floral citrusy edge(like a orange grove in blossom). The bittering is not to pronounced though from my other stunner I expect that to lift a tad.

All in all I think my botched FWH is a real success, but we will see there is plenty of time between now and then for the interesting subtleties to vanish.
And just for the haze fans, I had none until I roused some yeast into suspension for the conditioning

[prodigal2]

That's good attenuation if it's SO4, you must be doing something right

From the 2 beers I have so far done with this yeast it does not taste like S04, its far dryer and the hops seem to come out better(though that is probably due to the teaspoon of table salt). The yeast cake is also a mustard yellow, and it "seems" to be more of a top fermenter than S04 or Nottingham.
In truth though DaaB I seem to be getting consistent quality at the moment, which if truth be told I am really chuffed about, and it is not yeast specific as I have used 3 different types in my current short time brewing AG. Oh well in the next year things will be changed and then we will see if I can still maintain my current bench mark
If I thought that any of my beers would make it in good condition or not get drunk in a hotel room, I would take some along to the London brewers circle meet to get dissected

[Vossy1]

Greta news P2

I had none until I roused some yeast into suspension for the conditioning

Show off

[Garth]

good work prod,

[spearmint-wino]

Sounds great

I liken the taste of a good 'stunner to that of orange blossom honey.

If I thought that any of my beers would make it in good condition or not get drunk in a hotel room, I would take some along to the London brewers circle meet to get dissected

Naaaaah, don't worry. Bring beer. Lots of beer.

[prodigal2]

I have just had a taste of one of my bag-in-a-boxes. It is like sucking a grapefruit with no sugar with hint of beeryness. I have strong feeling this brew will be left for a while to mature.
Although to those that like strong grapefruit flavoured beer, this is a real winner

It has set me thinking if I did the same approach with Norms Bluebird, I would have a very differing reaction, as the challenger taste is very enjoyable and complex.hmmmm

[prodigal2]

42g Styrians(3.9AA) First wort hopped

were these the only hops ?

How much salt did you add ?

42g Styrians(3.9AA) First wort hopped
14g 15mins
20g at 80C

and a level teaspoon of ground sea salt.

All for a 18L batch. I think the last addition is completely unnecessary. If this batch stays like this it will be hidden away out of my sight and left till next spring. Hay ho it has 2 options for me, get its act together or down the drain, and it was my own screw up, but I think I have gained some very good knowledge of FWH that could work well with other hops.

[spearmint-wino]

Come on, bring a bottle over next week and let us decide, you know you want to

[prodigal2]

I've used the salt trick now on three beers, Brambling Beauty, bluebird, and FWH stunner. On my previous beers I found the hops where not reading, and as I have very soft water I thought what the heck and with the BB and Bluebird they have been a success. I think this stunner "may" mellow somewhat, as my Bluebird has mellowed somewhat.

Whats intresting is the FWH stunner is not bitter(in a ale way), but it has drawn the primary styrian flavour(oil?) right to the fore.

[prodigal2]

As I understand it FWH fixes the oils from the hops in the wort, though as a consequence the resin that gives the bittering flavour that we normally extract via copper hops is not as utilizable.
What I did in my backward wisdom was to use the copper hops in FWH, as for some reason it made sense, and yes you do extract a certain amount of bittering, just not as much as a normal 90min boil. What I would say is this may be a great way to up a dominant hop flavour that you may be partial to.
I will at the very least get SW to have a taste and report back, as I have the feeling that it is a profile at such a strength that you either love or hate.

I should also point out I have had another mouthful and its mellowing(just), so as with many things perhaps time will tell, though how the flavour has changed since I have bottled and bagged is most marked.

[prodigal2]

The only way to get to the bottom of this is to do this brew again and omit the salt, and yet when I made this beer the first time I used the same level of hops except, and I felt the flavour was slightly lacking though the bittering increased over time and the interesting flavour went missing.
And at this moment I'm not sure I want to take the risk of having a beer that is not to my taste.

Perhaps the salt works with some hops and not with others, with challenger I would say, spot on. So perhaps revisiting the bluebird and omit the salt I may get my head round it.

The complexites of hop utilisation and ballancing the oil vs resin is very interesting though

[Aleman]

TJB has soft water too, it might be worth checking out his water treatment.

Not really a lot to it TBH, I'll add Gypsum if I want to accentuate the hop bitterness or Calcium chloride to accentuate the malt Or a blend of the two If I want (As I normally need to) to boost the Calcium levels without really swinging one way or the other. I normally bung 20g of either or 10g or each into my mash (12Kg ish of malt, 30-35L of liquor) which is enough to bring the calcium levels up to ~65-70 (According to Fix the minimum required for a good hot break, Murphy's state a level of 200ppm, which I think is way to high).

As far as adding table salt though, thats one I'd stay well away from, OK the Chloride boosts the malt profile BUT, sodium can be objectionable at low and a teaspoon of salt (~3g) will add around 100ppm of Na

The sour,salty taste of sodium can accentuate beer's flavour when it is found in reasonable concentrations, but it is harsh and unpleasant in excess. It is poisonous to yeast, and brewers generally avoid water that contains an excess of 50ppm, especially where softness is characteristic of the beer flavour

I must admit that my Quaffale has an incredibly bitter taste, but then its only been 24hours since I pitched the yeast, there isn't a massive hop aroma in the FV, (like there was with the IPA brew a couple of weeks ago) Both brews had the same water treatment, so its unlikely to be that. Although the IPA brew had significantly less trub carried through to the FV, which might explain my experience. I must say that I am surprised that your describing teh bitterness as harsh as most people have said that the bitterness achieved through FWH is smoother and more rounded, less harsh. It will be interesting to hear how this one 'develops'

[prodigal2]

There's no point brewing a beer using non standard practices on purpose just to track down a problem.

I must admit I am intrigued more than anything.
As the beer is literaly like a grapefruit, all the complex flavours that where there at bottling have gone. Which to some Styrian headbangers may be a good thing. And I have a feeling over time the grapefruityness will mellow

Jim has soft water and says he doesn't have issues with hop flavour and as far as i'm aware he doesn't use any water treatment. Rab's another with soft water although I believe he does alter his water profile, he may have some good ideas, i'd seriously consider getting hold of him (pm) and asking his opinion.

I think I may be getting to pedantic over things to soon in my brewing life. In truth, out of the 8 the AG beers I have made, each one bar AG1 I would have paid for in the pub gladly. And I think this one will be fine, but maybe not to my taste. What I was intrested in when I set out to make this batch was to find out the effect of FWH, but like a fool I added salt, which has given me 2 very balanced ales. But I should of on hindesight not added the salt, and perhaps the salt inclusion works better with certain hops, to that I have no answer.
And perhaps I could just be getting poor utilisation.

You could try adding your late hops once your wort has cooled to 80 deg c and or you could try dry hopping once fermentation is over. There's more than one way to get good flavour from hops, sometimes though it's just a case of letting a beer mature.

Dry Hoping is something I will give a try with, though I need to make sure I am around so the hops don't sit in the secondry longer than intended.

I must say that I am surprised that your describing teh bitterness as harsh as most people have said that the bitterness achieved through FWH is smoother and more rounded, less harsh. It will be interesting to hear how this one 'develops'

I think harsh is the wrong word, its very grapefruity, which is subjective taste. I think I was so thrown by the intensity, which after the taste at bottling but a few days ago is so different.

As I think we all know, time makes a huge difference to beer. And I only had a sneaky taste as I was wondering if the quince aroma was still present.

Cheers for the input all. I will keep you all informed as things progress. This has opened my eyes to a lot of things in brewing, one of which is tweak a little not a lot